For the Love of Play

Ep. 4 Paul Kennedy - Sport Can Be An Oasis From The Chaos Of Life

• Playgroup Victoria • Season 1 • Episode 4

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"That’s a really powerful thing... for people to have almost an oasis from the chaos of their lives to come and spend time at a sports club.”  
 

In Conversation with Paul Kennedy – Journalist, Author and TV Presenter 

Content Warning: this episode references child abuse. Please take care of yourself when listening and, if necessary, skip the interview between 39:10 and 42:00. 


While Paul is well known as the former ABC mornings sports reporter, his books and documentaries shed more light on who he is and what he cares about. In this episode we talk about his writing, his love of sport and his discovery of creativity as an outlet. 

The conversation also explores the importance of family and how community institutions like sporting clubs can connect us, providing support, purpose and sometimes even a sanctuary from the challenges of life. 

Paul talks about why role models matter, the importance of encouragement during childhood and how one person can have a profound influence on their community - and society at large. 

About Our Guest 

A promising footballer in his youth, Paul pursued his love of sport and writing to become a journalist, eventually spending more than a decade as ABC TV’s morning sport reporter. His journalism has also taken the form of books and documentaries, and his beautifully honest memoir, Funkytown, is a rite-of-passage story, focusing on his teenage years in the Melbourne suburb of Seaford.  

Show Links 

Learn More About Playgroup Victoria 

Episode Credits 

Hosted by Mylie Nauendorf and Sinead Halliday. 

Interview conducted by Sinead Halliday. 

Edited by Jonathan Rivett. 

Mastering by James North Productions. 

Music by Selina Byrne. 

And thanks to our little friends Toby and Adelaide for voicing the intro. 

Enjoyed This Episode? 

Subscribe to the podcast so you never miss a conversation. If this episode resonated with you, please share it with friends and family.  

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Mylie:

Playgroup Victoria acknowledges the traditional owners of country throughout Australia and their continuing connection to land and community. We pay our respects to them, their cultures, and to their elders past and present.

Kids:

For the love of play.

Mylie:

For the love of play, an exploration of childhood, family, community, and belonging.

Paul Kennedy:

Go through a period of wanting to be a man, and the recklessness kicks in and the drinking and the fighting. But there is a way back, and usually it's through creativity. So for me, my what kept me steady through that period, that um tumultuous period, was being creative and writing and reading. Others it might be through drawing and being creative in that way, and for other people it might be music, welcome to For The Love of Play.

Mylie:

I'm Miley, and I am joined, as always, by my colleague Sinead. Hello, Sinead.

Sinead:

Hey Miley. Today our special guest is writer and journalist Paul Kennedy.

Mylie:

Ah yes, Paul Kennedy. Well, while Paul is well known as the former ABC Morning Sports Reporter, where he held post for about 13 years, it's actually his memoir and his books and his stories and writing that has shed more light onto who Paul is and what he cares about. And Sinead, I know you've read and really enjoyed Paul's memoir Funky Town.

Sinead:

I did. It was a great coming-of-age book. It was my brother who suggested that Paul would be a great guest for this podcast. We'd love to hear the voices of fathers. And in this conversation, we hear more about what community, belonging, and fatherhood mean to Paul.

Mylie:

Yeah, and we've learned that Paul coaches the juniors at his local football club and you know he supports the young boys to develop and grow. And, you know, we kind of learnt through this conversation that sport is such a key part of community and connection, and we explore that in this conversation with Paul.

Sinead:

Paul also talks about creativity as an outlet and the power of people coming together to make positive change. We hope this episode helps you and helps you to kick goals in your own life.

Mylie:

Yeah, let's get into it. Paul Kennedy.

Sinead:

From a very young age, Paul Kennedy gathered that football clubs provided a sense of belonging. There, Paul found a direct link to family, to community, purpose, and meaning in his life. Paul spent his first two years in Park of Hunyel before his family relocated to Seaford, a suburb that embraces Port Phillip Bay on the outer fringes of Melbourne. As a child, this was Paul's playground. As kids, he and his friends adventured around town on their bikes. Paul spent hours kicking the football with his older brother, and he enjoyed exploring what he describes as a majestic bay. Paul too explored his inner landscapes through sport and movement, mateship, and later through writing and books. Not only has Paul been a journalist for over 30 years now, he's written six books, one of which helped to begin the Royal Commission into child abuse in Australia, demonstrating as he did, Paul's capacity for social justice, compassion, and strong family values, which comes to the fore in so much of his work. Paul, welcome to our podcast. You describe sport as something that's almost spiritual in a way. What role do you think sport has in our lives to provide us with a greater sense of meaning and connection and belonging?

Paul Kennedy:

I think it's probably different for everyone. I've recently been making a documentary about um migrants and people with different uh much different heritage to me, some multicultural stories of Ozzy's doing well in sport and and uh so I have been sort of uh learning a lot about other people's journeys. Um one that springs to mind is um guy called Conor O'Leary, who's uh world-class surfer. He grew up in Crenulla uh to a um very loving parents. Uh his mum was a Japanese surfer. And so he grew up, he said in his house he was he grew up Japanese. Um but as soon as he left the house, he was he was you know full Aussie and in that crinulla, you can imagine the crinullah uh environment as well. And he said he was quite shy about his um Japanese heritage when he grew up, but now he's that's helping him sort of discover who he is. He's uh he represented Australia, uh represented Japan at the Olympics. And so he's fully embraced um his Japanese side and um he talks about that in a in almost a spiritual way as well, about being whole and and um uh you know feeling like he he's a whole person now. So I think that's really interesting. The other the other chats we've had around um the Adderwith and Pacific Island heritage uh rugby league players who talk about having grown up in Australia but then representing, say, Tonga had the Pacific Championships. And I was really interested to find out, you know, there of course, um, most of those players are very strong in their faith and and their uh relationship to to church and everything that I that I haven't experienced, but still in that spiritual sort of sense, they said that when they played for Tonga, which is where their parents are from, then they felt a great sense of peace. So I thought that was really interesting too. I guess with my myself, um that spiritual um link just comes through um you know, a feeling that I'm I have a a great belonging in playing footy originally when I played footy as a kid. Um and then just being in sport, I've always sort of felt like that's sort of my happy place. And um that you know, it's something that I could um contribute to. It's it gives me a bit of meaning and purpose. And and so apart from all the you know, the interesting people you meet and the fun you have along the way, that's probably the spiritual link. And then I think family plays into that too. You know, my my experiences. Yeah, you hear this growing up in Melbourne and talking about footy, you know, if you talk to someone about their experience, it's going to the footy with their with their mum or their dad or their grandparent or something. And and so actually the f the game that they're watching is not the the the point of it all. The point of it is person sitting next to them and sharing those experiences. So there's family there as well.

Sinead:

What early memories do you have before going to a game? Being in the car with your parents or your family, what you were listening to, what you were talking about, what was that experience like?

Paul Kennedy:

Yeah, really exciting. Um when I was um probably my earliest memories around football or um being a little bit too young to play. So my brother played um the year before I did, he was in the other tens, and uh I would go and watch him play and and sit at um one end of the ground wherever he was on the field, uh sit on my footy, and then I'd have a kick at quarter time and then go up the other end of the ground and watch watch and try and be as close to my brother to see how he went. Um so I've got a strong memory of that, watching watching Steve play and just wanting to be out there. And you know, then luckily enough the the next year uh my parents put me in the under nines and and away I went. But that was my early, earliest memory is that excitement of wanting to play. And then, you know, that can the connection with being on the field and being extremely happy and free and all the rest of it, that's um something that never really left me. Um you know, until I until I stopped playing. I sort of had that sense that um of of contentment while I was out on the field, even though, you know, even tougher games and all the rest of it, or injury and and so forth. I always felt really happy playing footy. So um that marries up with my earlier experiences, I guess. And and and probably one plays into the other.

Sinead:

I think about football songs sung in unison and a friend described them to me as chants. And you think about things like Manchester United when you've got fifty plus fans coming together and it reverberates through you and it almost comes together with your heartbeat. Do you think that in the modern world when people are uh less inclined to be traditionally going to church on a Sunday, do you think that uh sport and art galleries and libraries have become a place of community and religion for people?

Paul Kennedy:

Uh yeah, I guess so. It's hard for me to talk about religion because I I haven't had that experience. But I did go to Sunday school once. Um and then it must have been around the time we started playing junior footy on a Sunday. So um I didn't like it. I didn't like being there. I've never really felt a connection to to um to anything um that resembles religion. So uh and luckily for for us growing up, you know, junior footy was on a Sunday. So that was the place we went to every Sunday in the morning. And now, even now with my kids playing junior sport, so it's always been on Sunday mornings. Um so I can't really I'm not the best person to compare it to religion. There are others who could who could do that, who have a love of both. Um but I can see that that's you know, the um going and and being together with with uh like-minded people in your community or people you normally wouldn't mix with. Um you can come together at in a club level, then you know that's that's a really strong connection to have in a community. And and I would think that if that ever leaves us, if we don't have places to go and hang out and um and have common goals and and um you know share experiences like you do in sport, I think that'd be very sad. And I think that um that the disconnection that people feel, or even the loneliness that people can feel these days um would get even worse. So yeah, I do think it's it's uh it's a public gathering that that has been um really good for us. Um I I would I'd suggest that you know others once again just sort of mentioning the people I've been interviewing recently for this for this docker, you know, they feel the same way. I might come from um war-torn countries, for instance, and come as refugees, uh, but then are able to be embraced. And there are challenges too. You know, not all places are welcoming, but if you f if you find the right club with that welcoming environment and you somewhat someone um figuratively wraps their arms around you and says, you can come and play sport here and your children will be safe here, and we're we're gonna look after you and uh make sure you feel supported. And then they play basketball, they don't play soccer or whatever it is. You know, that's that's a really powerful thing, too, for people to have uh almost an oasis from the the chaos of their lives to come and um spend time in a sports club. So I think, yeah, there is definitely those um deeper levels of of meaning.

Sinead:

And what about particularly for young boys and young men? What does that closeness of the football club be it's really an outlet where boys can let off steam, but they can also have some physical touch and intimacy. You can't go to a football club without the boys hugging and you know giving an encouraging tap on the shoulder. Why do you think that that is increasingly important for particularly boys as they progress?

Paul Kennedy:

Yeah, I I I don't I I don't know um whether it's any different to when I play, but I can talk about my experience. You know, it's not um uh you know the intimacy is in um getting in the change rooms before the game and just you know having that common goal of right, we're gonna try and beat this team today. Individually, you've got your own goals. Um I used to like looking up to the coach and and pleasing the coach. Um if my coach asked me to to do something in particular or play on someone a good player from the other team or just lay lay early tackles so I could set the tone for my teammates. You know, I really enjoyed that and and that meant a lot to me. Um to be together with with teammates. And some of them, by the way, you you spend a lot of time playing footy. I would have played with hundreds of guys, you know, and at the end of it you probably end up with only a well, in my um experience, you know, maybe a handful of really, really close mates that you'll know forever. Um but you know, you play with people that you that sort of pass through and they they here one year, go on the other the other. But yeah, for that time that they're in the the club rooms, they're your mates and uh they're people that you trust to look after you. Um yeah, so there's that I think that's that um connection that that I enjoyed. And also it was a really, really good physical outlet outlet for me. You know, um I'm sure everyone's different, but I used to I used to love the collisions and I liked um I liked uh you know proving my uh bravery in front of my dad or or my coach. You know, I liked putting myself in a situation where I could um uh maybe even be hurt, but um, you know, get my eyes on the ball anyway. And so yeah, that was good. I I just liked the the roughness of footy. Um I know others do do as well. And yeah, so it's it's it's all types of things. But you know, being together with your mates, even if they're only your mates for that that period of time, uh yeah, I think it's it it's good. I I I guess I didn't know at the time that I needed it, but I definitely wanted it, and that was part of football that I was drawn to. As a coach, I could see other uh at a different way. You know, I coached at a club level where um you know we were we were sort of a traditional place where there wasn't much hugging or um or uh you know the intimacy that you described uh that wasn't part of our culture, you know. But um I remember with the one guy that we had coming, came into the the uh into the club. Donnie Eppel was his name, much loved uh member of our team, um and he was a Samoan. He came from a Samoan family, he was um quite religious. He just had a a different way of of being. And it was like when he walked into the room, this big light just turned on or was came in with him and he changed it. And I saw our players, you know, embracing each other after games, and just because he was so uh he was so expressive, you know, that really caught on in our in our um change room and our team. That was the happiest team I've ever seen. Um I could watch it as a coach and realise that one person actually changed uh the way that people related to each other, and that was because he he'd brought a different different culture and he brought his heritage with him. And uh yeah, so that was really interesting as well. I think, you know, I I could I don't think that I could s speak on behalf of anyone else in on that topic. Um but those are my experiences, and yeah, it's a w w one person can change everything as well.

Sinead:

You describe your dad as strong also a gentleman. What impact did he have on you in terms of influencing you and how you went on to treat people and he coached like you did, and uh you said that people sometimes stopped him on the street and thanked him for his contribution. Uh it sounds like he made people feel really seen and acknowledged.

Paul Kennedy:

Yeah. Yeah, he d he did that. He was um so he was my coach um in those early years, just for a couple of years. He had a rugby league background and rugby union because he came from Sydney, so he didn't necessarily know a lot about Aussie rules. Uh, he bought a book and he taught his taught himself what we would call today the fundamentals of kicking and everything. And then he he taught those things to us as young boys. But um his real uh worth as a coach was paying uh giving the same level of respect to all the players. So when you're coaching, not everyone is the same, not everyone's got the same abilities, but he uh showed me that that you can treat everyone with the same level of respect. So and dad, because his dad his father died when he was very young, and he spent a lot of time in his adolescence and teenage years feeling lost uh without his dad. Um he had a when he coached our team, he had a special eye for uh for kids who looked a bit directionless, a bit lost like he did, maybe they might have some trouble at home or or didn't have a dad. Um yeah, so he was he would call them the you know, some kids were battlers or they uh you know they were doing it tough. So he he gave those um those types of players um you know the the same amount of respect that he put the best player out. That was really obvious to me. And he went um he was just really kind to to the players. He was not overly critical. So the reason you should be critical of children, um, you know, sports setting it all. So yeah, he he set that standard. And I just applied when I was um when I became a coach at 27 and coached men, um some some of the guys were older than me, but most of them were younger than me. Uh I just applied the same teachings that my my dad had back in those days, and I found it a really successful way to coach. Um you know, there's obviously nuances, you know, everyone's different, and you have to treat all the players slightly differently. But if you can pay that same level of respect to everyone that turns up, then it's a good starting point. So yeah, I got most of my coaching values from dad. And uh they've been really, really helpful, to say the least. So uh and you know, as you get older, you don't really even see yourself as some sort of um uh experienced coach, you know, to sort of reflect like I've made more than him. I always sort of ask myself, what would my dad do in this situation because he's to me is the guy that's uh did it best.

Sinead:

We talk a lot in the early years about role modelling and I think a lot about the language that we use with young people. And we're talking from the get-go, you know, with what the toddlers are hearing and seeing how um mum and dad treat each other and how the coach treats the other players. What do you observe with the young children that you coach? What kind of values, what kind of support do you think that that they need now in quite a frenetic world that we live in? Technology from the get-go is there, and there's a lot of variables and a lot of noise coming at children.

Paul Kennedy:

Yeah. I feel like it's it's much harder to be a kid now than it used to be. Um that's because they all have phones. Uh usually most kids, once they get to high school at around the age of twelve, get their first phone. Some get it before that, some get it later. But you know, they start to hit the phones and their chat groups at around twelve. Um and then you you talk about noise. Well, to me, that's constant noise. Um once they start engaging with um the internet, and then they're starting to uh the algorithms will all start to take hold as well. And you know, who knows what sort of world they're entering and what they're listening to and who they're hearing from. So that's that to me, that's really difficult to navigate as a parent. And then yeah, I do f I do feel like it's it's really, really challenging to be a kid. So from my point of view, coaching kids now, I would say my my main thing is to uh provide them with you know encouragement and praise. That's probably never really changed. Um but just to make sure that they're speaking and and understand what is is happening in their world. So um you know, we talk about the phones and and you've m people will know better than I will about what that's doing to their brains and and what that's doing to them socially. You'll have experts who can talk on that. But to me, um kids need to be reminded that they have to be kind to themselves and they have to uh be encouraging to themselves. And so positive self-talk is something that um I would encourage of of anyone, uh including kids. And even that what Bryce Courtney uh described in a terrific book that uh that he wrote once, it's almost like um you know, sort of a memo that I kept going back to. He wrote this book called The Recipe for Dreaming. And he just he he pointed out that we say so many words to each other uh to ourselves in a day, something like twenty thousand words to uh to ourselves. Why then are we being so negative to ourselves? You know, if if we've got this constant voice in our head, why can't we make that positive? And then he talks about the um the practice of dreaming, and uh people have different words for it, I guess. Um but just um putting your phone down. So you know, I told my kids the other week, the boys that I coached, you know, my tip, and I'm no expert, but my tip for you is to make sure that you put your phone um in your mum and dad's room when you go to bed, so it's not in your room, because the period where you sort of go to bed and then fall asleep is a really great chance to dream about what you want to be when you get older. Um and that simple act of dreaming and having a big dream and um going over in your head and and um dreaming about all the details and and just imagining yourself and what you're gonna be when you get older. Things like that I did when I was a kid, I found it helpful, and um I just wonder whether if somebody's sleeping with their phone in the same bedroom and it's pinging and there's group chats and there's um there's all that noise, as you say, you know, whether they actually are getting the opportunity to use their brain in a different way, which can create uh positivity, some great self-talks, some self-belief, and all the rest of it. So but uh even speaking about, I feel um like I'm not really qualified to talk about it. Other experts will have done studies on all this stuff and they'll they'll explain it better than I will. But um yeah, my one thing that I feel like kids need is is encouragement, positivity, and the tools to create their own story and their own dreaming.

Sinead:

Aaron Ross Powell So can you tell us a little bit about your own childhood and your relationship with your siblings? What was that like?

Paul Kennedy:

Yeah, I th I feel like I I won the lottery um when I was born into my family. I had uh mum and dad, uh a brother and two sisters. I was the middle child, so I had all the benefits there of um uh you know, the the eldest child always sort of cops the worst of it, I think, as mum and dad are learning how to how to deal, particularly through adolescents and teenage years. I was a middle child, so I was I felt like I had a charmed existence. Um we grew up in a new estate, so everything was new. All the people and all the families around us were were quite young and we learned about life from each other. Uh I was a long way from the city and um nowhere near the country, so we were right smack bang in the middle of um the urban sprawl or the outer suburbs. Um yeah, so we didn't really, you know, trips to the city were like going to Disneyland and um trips to the footy to go to to watch um VFL footy at Waverly, that was you know, full of excitement and anywhere we went was great. But if we stayed around the neighborhood, that was great too. We made our own fun. Um we sort of roamed around. Being part of Generation X, um, you know, we had baby-boom parents who, for the first time really, in Australia's history, both parents were were working. Um and uh, you know, the kids were sort of left to their own devices a little bit, and and yeah, so we we just had a happy existence in the suburbs. I loved it and I was lucky enough not to have um any any sort of trauma in my childhood or or challenges. So I guess that came when I was 17, 18, and then really started to learn about the world more broadly. But right up until that point, you know, I was I was protected by a loving family and and uh you know nice schools and good friends and all the rest of it.

Sinead:

Your parents did take you as a young boy to see a psychologist because you had a tendency to react. It seemed like you had a lot of energy, or a lot that you kept inside yourself. Um how did you feel about that as a young boy? Were you aware of feeling different or have having something more that you wanted to express or needing somewhere to put that?

Paul Kennedy:

Yeah, I was probably a difficult, um, difficult kid to have in the classroom, so that's where that really came from. Found it hard to sit still. Um so I was and I was probably always um trying to dominate classroom discussions as well. So I was loud and I was I was probably obnoxious. If I had the tea if I had a great teacher relationship, I was a much better student. But if I didn't on with the teacher, I was I was a uh probably a pain in the ass. Um so yeah, that that sort of came at the urgings of my principal at the time. I told mum and dad that I needed some help. Uh and I needed to see a psychologist. So yeah, I remember going to see this the psych, and we had two um sessions there. The first one, he was teaching me how to relax. Um I suppose he thought that, you know, that's just um providing me with the tools to to do some deep breathing, relax, and some imagining as well. So I looked back, and I was first class, really, what he was trying to do. I was of the mindset that this guy's not going to do anything for me, and I'm not gonna buy into what he was doing. Um it was almost like he was trying to hypnotize me. And then the second time I went back, I had the same attitude, but actually I really enjoyed it. You know, he did the deep breathing, and um you know, if you if you look at experts and meditation now, which I have done and I'm I'm quite interested in it, they talk about the body scan. You know, you think about your toes, you wiggle your toes, and then you go, oh, for the body just to relax. So I remember doing that in the psychologist's office. Um and then I did sort of fall into this peacefulness um against my own will, because I was trying to resist it. I was trying to pretend I didn't need any any intervention, basically. Yeah, so um I don't know if they're overall lessons. I do remember the the relaxation techniques, and I I still I use them today. So it was a really good thing. Um mum and dad, mum particularly, had to always get caught up to school because of my, you know, I was in trouble, I was being disruptive, or I I could be even on the sports field, I I didn't I couldn't sort of regulate my emotions at times. If if things were if we weren't winning a game that I thought we should be winning, you know, I could be uh overly emotional. I don't remember being that way towards my teammates, but um just in myself, you know, I wanted to to do more or or be better. Um but it was my it was minor in sport. It was more in the classroom that I was just uh a pain in the ass. I can only imagine how that would play out now. Uh I'd probably definitely well, I'd definitely find myself in a psychologist's office. Um you know, and I'd be lucky to I I would think myself lucky if I found someone that taught me relaxation techniques, because really those those two sessions were with um first class treatment. I still remember them. And um actually I just spent a lot of time now listening to different podcasts and reading books about meditation. So uh yeah, I I get where they were going with it. Um yeah, I don't know that it impacted me in any other way. I was uh mum and dad must have thought this isn't working and didn't go back a third time. So um yeah, I I was different. I felt I felt different, but I just had yeah, I had um probably self-belief. Uh once again, I was just lucky there. I think that's the way I was made. My mum at dad helped that. They were always uh encouraging me and telling me I could be whatever I like. But um I think you've got to be a bit lucky as well to just be born with that positivity. I don't know what it's like to to feel depressed. Um I see that in other people. I haven't had that feeling. So touch wood. I'm turned fifty this year and uh it might might be ahead of me, but uh at the moment I've just always been felt that positivity in light.

Sinead:

Thanks for sharing that experience, Paul, because I think that'll help a lot of people. Like everyone goes through different seasons in their lives, whether you're you know, six or sixteen. So thank you. Can you tell us a bit about Mrs. Mack? You said earlier that you do believe that one person can change your life. So, what did Mrs. Mack bring to your young, eager brain?

Paul Kennedy:

Well, she was she was my literature teacher, and I think a couple of things played in there. My my school that I went to had a really good English department. So I did have it wasn't just one person, I had several um great experiences with with teachers, even going back to primary school, to be honest. I just That great Yeah, I found like I had great teachers who connected me with some level of reading and writing. So I always enjoyed that part of school. And then by the time I got to year 12, I signed up for literature. I did it in year eleven as well. It was it was good. I I enjoyed uh Mrs. Mack's uh way of basically being a translator. So we would learn about um you know Shakespeare, and I'd get to the end of it and still not be able to read Shakespeare, but she would take us through um uh explain the metaphors in a way that I felt like I'd probably read this this great book or poem and uh or play. Um and there was other stories. I remember Thomas Hardy's book, Tess of the Derbervilles, which would be otherwise a book that I would not really be drawn to. We read that and I'd I felt the um you know the excitement of of reading the language, that old language, but you know, some of the terms of phrase there were just um something that started to get me more interested in reading. And then, yeah, so um my writing was was always pretty good. I could be expressive with my writing. Looking back now, I probably uh Mrs. Mack and other teachers were a bit too kind uh in saying that I was a really good writer. I I could see what they mean, but uh at that early stage, you know, I could just put down what I felt onto paper and I could be honest, and um, you know, my writing hadn't developed anywhere near what it would when I became a cadet journalist and all the rest of it. So but yeah, she she definitely um helped helped set me on a direction of something other than football. And I'll be eternally grateful for her. She was the f first person to suggest that I go for a journalism cadetship in my um my last year of high school. I didn't even really know what that was, so uh I I didn't know what path I could follow to get into journalism. Uh and she she lit that spark uh lit that flame. And yeah, it's it's sort of been burning ever since. I've been a journalist now for 31 years. I think it's my 31st year in journalism. So yeah, I I can thank my teachers and particularly Mrs. Mack for that, for setting me on that path of basically reading and writing, which was one thing that I was I could stick at.

Sinead:

I had an older man say to me that if boys lose their sense of self, particularly in adolescence, a a belief in themselves, it can be very hard to gather that back. What do you make of these different stages in a boy's life? Because I heard you say that um you believe that boys are delivered twice, once from their mum, and then again, you know, 15 years of age and onwards um as they're maturing. So I wonder how do you keep that sense of self in even now in primary school students there's increasing anxiety around things. As you said, there's a lot of noise for children now. Um but what do you think it is that really actively supports young men?

Paul Kennedy:

That's a big question. Um when I wrote that about being delivered twice, I it's I deliberately said boys like me. So I I understand that not everyone's the same. But um definitely boys like me, um sporty kids, uh quite ambitious, ready to ready to um you know uh be thrown into this world of becoming a man. Uh you know, at about 15, that's probably where the same could be said of my relationship with my sons. You know, about 15, you see them start to switch off and they're not listening to their mum and dad anymore. And they're looking for other mentors or elders, whatever you want to call them. And so for me, that was the local footy club. So at about 15, we then got handed over to the under-17s, which was part of the senior club. And then those guys were my role models. And and the behaviors of that club weren't ideal either. You know, like I um I wanted to be something that probably wasn't that helpful to me, um, which led me to drinking and some fighting and and you know, look back now and think that really wasn't me. That wasn't part of my nature, but that was an experience that I went through because I wanted to be like those guys and I wanted to follow their lead. And I would argue that probably they were all the same as me anyway. They were following the guys who went before them. So uh that that was sort of my experience. Uh once again, you talk about luck and um having great parents. I think that even if you go through tough times or you go, you know, you make some bad decisions, which you know a lot of us do, um, then you've still got that that um that base um of what your mum and dad taught you. So um, you know, right from wrong, having good values, whatever you want to call it. For me, that was all that was all from home. And so whenever I've um made some bad choices in life as as a young man and now as a middle-aged man, I've still got that. Like I've I've just had that safe upbringing and those examples of of uh my parents as good role models. And so yeah, it for me it's a big question of other people have different ex different experiences and um they may not have that. You know, they might come from a broken home, they might have experienced trauma, they might have might have experienced abuse. Um and I I would say that it would be much more difficult if you don't have that that safe upbringing, like I did. It's not to say you can't have a really happy life, but it's probably for other people to answer that question on their own behalf. I I probably don't have the answers you're looking for. But um you know, being kind and caring and giving uh I tell you what, this this is this is one experience that I'll share with you is I know some young people have done I didn't know I talk about who they are, but they go through a period of wanting to be a man and be you know, the recklessness kicks in and the drinking and the fighting. Um but there is a way back, and and usually it's through creativity, um, which I'm sort of thinking more and more about. So for me, my the what kept me steady through that period, that um tumultuous period, was being creative and writing and reading. So that that was my outlet for being creative. And I did keep a diary and all the rest of that. Um and being creative in that way. And for other people it might be music. But creativity is much underrated in discussions with um with boys like me, I guess. And to give them permission to say, well, um it's not particularly it doesn't have to be feminine to be um creative. And so um, yeah, throw yourself into whatever you like. Music, art, um, literature, uh anything creative can really be helpful.

Sinead:

Paul, I want to ask you, what's your experience been like as a father when you first brought home your firstborn son? What was it like? What did you think? Has it surprised you?

Paul Kennedy:

Gee, that's another big question. Um Having kids has been the best thing in life for me. It's uh most um treasured experience. So um yeah, I've had three sons with my wife Kim. Um it's like nothing that you you can't be prepared for it. Um basically, you know, do anything other than stand there and watch your wife go through what she has to go through to have the have the child, and then you're basically um in awe of her and um then the child, you know, comes along and and then you just try not to stuff it up basically along the way and and be good support. So uh I still don't think that I'm you know uh some sort of expert on it. I've got uh three boys now, two of them are in their late teens and and one's in high school. Uh it's just been the best experience that I could hope for going through yeah, going through life. Everything else is a there's a oh it probably sounds like a cliche, but everything else is definitely um you know second place, a distant second to having kids and and watching them develop. And it's uh you know, it's toddlers in primary school age, every step of the way is just great. You feel like you're privileged to just see it all happen.

Sinead:

Cliches are cliches for a reason, Paul. They're they're often very true. I just got a few last things to ask you, and then I'll let you go. Because I'm you're being very generous with your time. You have been part of telling stories that led to the Royal Commission in child sexual abuse. Uh and I was moved to tears reading one of your accounts um of one man who'd been impacted over the years, and he'd just written a note that said too much pain um because he could no longer bear what had happened to him as a child. Those early years are so sacred. In what ways as a son, a father, a friend, um in what ways can we nurture and create spaces that children can be themselves and feel safe in?

Paul Kennedy:

Yeah. Well my my experience in basically um witnessing Chrissy Foster and her fight for justice alongside her her late husband Anthony uh was life-changing. I'll just give you and uh and listen as a bit of brief background. So when I was in 1996, I was a cadet journalist and I wrote a story about clergy sex abuse in Oakley in suburban Melbourne. Um and Chrissy and Anthony's daughters were abused by a priest. And it was a very, very long struggle for them to get justice for the crimes against their daughters. And that led to a book that Chrissy and I wrote called Hell on the Way to Heaven in 2010. That preceded uh the Royal Commission into Institutional Abuse of Children, um which was very strong. I think it was still Australia's largest ever Royal Commission, went for five years. Then they had findings. Uh now, yeah, I learned a lot of things al along the way. Probably that the um the greatest thing was to come out of that Royal Commission was child safe practices. Nothing's perfect, but the I I can witness it even at junior sports clubs now. Um committees will have to go through processes to keep children safe, to understand the reporting, mandatory reporting and um different ways of providing a safe environment for children. So yeah, to me that was a really positive thing to watch Chrissy and Anthony and others um push for justice and just keep tuning up and keep demanding answers from elected officials.

unknown:

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Paul Kennedy:

Yeah, it's it's you know a couple of really big things that happen there. And yeah, I've I've just I'm great friends still with Chrissy Foster. She's an amazing person. And through that connection, I've met so many amazing people that have that have been similarly courageous in their fights.

Sinead:

Scientists and philosophers alike, they come back to the value of our friendships and our relationships as being a key pillar in life. We can do all of these things, eat well and exercise and earn lots of money and all these things that people aspire to. But what of our relationships and what of your friendships, particularly your childhood friendships?

Paul Kennedy:

Yeah, I had a great mate going through high school. I didn't have like a really big group of friends. You know, my brother had a a group of like 10 or 12 friends that were less together. My my best mate, Adam, was someone that was just there at every every day, basically, through my childhood. We went to primary school together and high school together. When I were at Funky Town, I talked about the other mates that I had, um, Lee and Miles um particularly. And there was sort of a group of four of us, but there were others as well who I look back and and really value as being my mates in high school. Uh you know, I haven't stayed in contact with all of them, but they were to me, they were they got me through high school and and yeah, I love those guys still and the way that we were as friends when we were young. And actually, I when I was um riding Funky Town, I said to and examining sort of toxic masculinity and and how we were as boys, I said to a girl that we went to school with, must have been really hard growing up, you know, in Frankston being a female. And she said to me, No, it wasn't. It was it was um it was fine. I loved it. You know, I had a really similar experience to you. I I enjoyed myself um because I had good friends. And that was really um she was the first person to sort of highlight that in in the way that I was writing the book. And uh looked closer at that aspect of friendship and how important it was, because she made it really clear to me that she had a great experience and she knew without him thinking about it was because she had good mates. So um yeah, I still speak to Adam regularly. He lives in Queensland now, so we're still close mates. Um and that's been a lifelong friendship. But I've made other mates along the way, and you know, I I sort of circumstances when you get to to age where you have kids, your circumstances of your your kids and where they go to school and where they might play sport or do other things, that sort of dictates who you spend your time with. But I've got really close mates that I met through uh through work as well that I I hardly see anymore. But uh they're still good friends and we have a good laugh when we catch up on the phone. You're doing different stuff, and yeah, so life takes you in a different direction. But your friends. Yeah, you're f your friends are everything, family's everything. You you're lucky if you've got both of those things in your life.

Sinead:

For people listening who haven't and heard of it before, Paul's memoir is Funky Town, and it's a great coming-of-age story. Uh, and quite beautiful. The opening of your book reads All of childhood's unanswered questions must finally be passed back to the town and answered there. This was The Cage Bird Sings by Maya Angelo. In what ways does that strike a chord with you? What does that mean to you?

Paul Kennedy:

Well, I just think that probably when I started writing Funky Town, I didn't write it as write it for some sort of um therapy. Um but in writing it, I felt like I addressed some of the things that have been nagging away at me, uh, my insecurities when I was 17, 18, my um my uh you know, binge drinking and and the bad choices I made, which really led, you know, I was probably the only victim of those uh those choices. You know, I um you know I was sort of uh self-sabotaging, you know, certain things and I I just couldn't connect with with girls in a way that I wanted. I was really insecure. Um so in writing the book, you know, and as um as the quote goes, you know, I went back to my childhood and looked at things and found some answers along the way. And actually I feel like I've I've come to terms with that now, that insecurity and stuff that I felt a little bit um not quite ashamed of. Um I don't I didn't connect it with shame, but definitely some uneasiness around how how I was when I was 17 and 18. And I guess, yeah, that quote usually in books you you sometimes I guess you find a quote that you know will resonate and you you pencil it in before you write the first chapter. But uh a couple of the quotes that I used in Funky Town, including that one, I chose at the end after I realized that it didn't make a lot of sense to me that I found some answers by going back to my childhood. Uh the other one, of course, was um from The Breakfast Club. Uh don't mess with the ball, young man, you'll get the horns, I think. That that didn't really have much sense. I just thought that was a nice, nice quote. I watched a lot of John Hughes movies.

Sinead:

Yeah. Well, if anyone's listening, I think Paul Kennedy would do very good movie reviews. I know that you quite like movies. Um and I also enjoyed some of your song choices in that book. Come on, Eileen is what he built.

Paul Kennedy:

Great song. Once again, a bit like movies. When you go back and revisit them, you sort of you it's uh question mark of whether or not they hold up. I think Come on Elaine is best after um after a few beers, but I I wouldn't know about these these days. I don't really drink, so but I still like the song.

Sinead:

Thank you so much, Paul. Thank you for all of your stories and all of these documentaries that you've got coming out now. Um it's been a bro joy to speak to you today.

Paul Kennedy:

Thanks, you know, and thanks for your support. So um you're too kind in what you say about Funky Town. I'm glad that people enjoyed it.

Mylie:

For the Love of Play is a podcast produced by Playgroup Victoria. The episode was hosted by me, Miley Nowendorf. Sinead Halliday was my co-host, and as always, Sinead conducted our interview today. The episode was edited by Jonathan Rivet, and the music was performed by Selena Byrne. This was the fourth episode of season one. In episode five, Sinead speaks with our amazing colleague Naomi Jeffrey, a person who understands and articulates the importance of Playgroup as well as anyone. We hope you can join us then. Before we go, if you're interested in finding out more about Playgroup, head over to our website www.playgroup.org.au. And if you are in Victoria and you would like to find a playgroup near you, take a look at our find a playgroup page www.playgroup.org.au forward slash finds.