For the Love of Play

Bonus Episode - Emeritus Professor Dorothy Scott: It Takes a Village to Raise a Child... and What Does it Take to Build a Village?

• Playgroup Victoria • Season 1 • Episode 6

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"I like that African proverb that it takes a village to raise a child because it always makes me think ‘and what does it take to build a village?’" 
 

In Conversation with Emeritus Professor Dorothy Scott – World-Leading Expert in Child and Family Welfare 

This special episode of For the Love of Play was in fact part of our original podcast series, the Playgroup Podcast, which we launched in early 2020. Sadly, the project was derailed by the pandemic.  

Our conversation with Emeritus Professor Dorothy Scott was recorded in 2019, but remains as interesting and relevant now as it was all those years ago.  

The discussion covers Dorothy’s early professional years, including how she came to the field of early childhood, her work in developing the state’s first sexual assault counselling service, as well as the radical societal shifts over the past 50 years that have changed parenting and roles within families. Dorothy also talks about the fundamentally inclusive and democratic nature of community institutions such as playgroups.  

About Our Guest 

Emeritus Professor Dorothy Scott is Playgroup Victoria’s Patron.  

Over a long and distinguished career, Dorothy has closely examined the folds of early childhood, disentangling aspects of children's and families' worlds, as well as our wider communities - our villages. Dorothy is a scholar, an honorary fellow at the University of Melbourne, and the custodian of much knowledge and wisdom in the field of child and family welfare. 

Show Links 

Learn More About Playgroup Victoria 

Episode Credits 

Hosted by Mylie Nauendorf and Sinead Halliday. 

Interview conducted by Sinead Halliday. 

Edited by Jonathan Rivett. 

Mastering by James North Productions. 

Music by Selina Byrne. 

And thanks to our little friends Toby and Adelaide for voicing the intro.


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Mylie:

Playgroup Victoria acknowledges the traditional owners of country throughout Australia and their continuing connection to land and community. We pay our respects to them, their cultures, and to their elders, past and present.

Kids:

For the love of play, for the love of play, for the love of play.

Mylie:

For the love of play, an exploration of childhood, family, community, and belonging.

Dorothy Scott:

I remember teaching a little girl in the sand pit to hold her hands like a cup, and I would then let the sand through to her hands, and then I would put my hands as a cup underneath hers and ask her to give me the sand. And it was, I think, at that moment that I saw the significance of play.

Sinead:

Hey Miley, heyda, everybody listening as the sun is streaming through our side window.

Mylie:

The sun is streaming through, it is looking lovely and sun-kissed afternoon here. Well, Sinead, here we are, end of season one. What a world ride. Tell me, share with me your thoughts, share with me your feelings now that we've got this first season out into the world.

Sinead:

Well, it's been a real gift to have these conversations. I think our endeavor to capture the important aspects of the human condition, those pillars of life, friendship, empathy, a way to contribute, find meaning and have positive experiences and pass them on with upcoming generations. There's been so many insights that I won't forget anytime soon, and it's left me feeling really inspired.

Mylie:

Yeah, I think for me, what really came out was this, you know, authenticity. Leaning into getting in touch with what makes you your most authentic self, and that in turn helping you support your family, yourself, your family, your community, and your village. And I think these guests really embodied that for me about, you know, what they do to embody their authentic self. And it it kind of, you know, all of these amazing conversations we were finally able to put out there for everyone to listen to, it got us thinking about all of the conversations we have here at Plague Victoria. Sinead is always out there interviewing people, recording all of these interviews, and we just have so many voices that we want to bring to the fore. And we we we kind of kicked off this project years ago. We didn't really kick it off. We started it, but it didn't kick off. And there was one conversation that we we had back in 2019, actually, that we really thought we could put out there with this first season of this For the Love of Play podcast. So we're gonna bring you that episode today as a bit of a bonus episode to round off season one. Sinee, tell me who we are talking to today.

Sinead:

We are talking to MRETS Professor Dorothy Scott. Dorothy is someone who I think of as a bit of an evergreen. She's been a steady and growing force collecting experiences and looking out over the environments where children live and develop and require a level of care. Only the other day I was reading about The Elders, which was started by Nelson Mandela in 2007, and it's made up of independent leaders from across the world who come together in their mission for human rights, peace, justice, and caring for the planet. And I was thinking of Dorothy after I read that because I think that these quiet achievers are quite instrumental to our societies in the way that they toil away and examine the status quo and gather knowledge, and they're motivated by causes for good. And without these people that our societies can't function cohesively, I think that's especially important now where citizen journalism and the span of technology can cloud the human capacity for togetherness, for a level of acceptance and kindness. And I think highlighting all of those beautiful human aspects as much as we can is only a good thing.

Mylie:

And a big part of Dorothy's work is that she is working alongside others to create avenues of support for children and for families, and that just feels like such a wonderful way to end off this first season of a podcast where we're exploring childhood, we're exploring family and community, and most importantly, we're exploring belonging, and that's the underlying piece of all of this. So, without further ado, here is a conversation from 2019 with Dorothy Scott. A note before we begin this episode the following interview references child abuse. Please take care of yourself when listening, and skip forward if necessary.

Sinead:

Dorothy is a distinguished scholar, an honorary fellow at the University of Melbourne, and now the custodian of much knowledge and wisdom. We welcome Dorothy today to speak at a time of great change, of technological change, wherein our modes of connection and communication continue to evolve with great speed. Dorothy, what first piqued your interest in pursuing this line of work?

Dorothy Scott:

I was 15 at high school, and a call came over what in those days was a loudspeaker in each room, asking for volunteers who might go to the Alambi Reception Centre, which was a special type of children's home, uh within a kilometre of my school, in Burwood, um, in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne. And this was the place to which all children who were being brought into care were brought by women police. Uh, we're talking about the mid-1960s, and there they remained until their cases were heard in the children's court. And so I walked through the gates and I started to get to know a group of girls who were not much younger than my age, and I helped them with their literacy. And I was very moved and appalled by the conditions of the children. And it was at that time that I made a decision to do what I could in my lifetime to prevent children coming into a place like that. It was overcrowded, it was rigid, and it was the trauma, we wouldn't have used that word then, but it was the trauma of children and their insecurity. They may have been given safety, but they were not given security because of the great uncertainty in their lives. And when I finished school, I worked there as a childcare worker, and I remember sitting in the sand pit with children of three and four who were immobilized, who did not know how to play, who were frozen. And we would now probably say that these children were deeply traumatized, having experienced abuse or neglect, having very recently been removed from their families, and now being in this large institution with a high turnover of children, because children came and children went, and many different staff. And I remember teaching a little girl in the sand pit to hold her hands like a cup, and I would then let the sand through to her hands, and then I would put my hands as a cup underneath hers and ask her to give me the sand. And it was, I think, at that moment that I saw the significance of play, and the wider experience of being there was what led me to do social work at the University of Melbourne in the 1970s, and yes, just to pursue that mission of doing what I could to prevent children coming into the care of the state.

Sinead:

We often hear the African proverb, it takes a village to raise a child. And indeed, you helped that young girl and lots of other people that you've come across over the years. What is it about this idea that strongly prevails? And how does play group and other early years practices support it?

Dorothy Scott:

Well, I like that African proverb that it takes a village to raise a child because it always makes me think, and what does it take to build a village? And in our contemporary society, what might it take to rebuild the village? Where the village, where the sense of community, the social cohesion, the sense of belonging, connecting to one another has actually been diminished by long commutes, by very busy families where everyone is working, um, and by the increasing social isolation that we often experience in today's world, despite our connectedness in an electronic sense. And what's special about play groups is that they're there for everybody. You don't have to be a client of a service. There's no eligibility criteria other than that you have a child in the appropriate age range. And so they're open. There's no stigma. There are a couple of other groups that are similar: antenatal classes and first-time parent groups that maternal and child health nurses facilitate for the first eight or so sessions, and which may then evolve into self-sustaining networks and indeed become play groups. But play groups are special because they have play at the center. And I think that that brings a certain joy. And they are highly natural. It's it's it's a bit like the uh the village well of days gone by, where people can come together in a naturalistic way and develop a feeling of belonging and enjoy interaction with one another and to experience the joy of children, which is a a great source of inspiration and happiness. And for some families, particularly those who have a very high level of situational stress and who may be living in poverty, uh, this may be a lifesaver. Or for an affluent family, but where a mother may be suffering from postnatal depression or feeling a loss of identity from what she had when she was in paid employment. It it is giving people an opportunity to know each other in a new way and forge friendships that might last for a lifetime. My best friend was someone I met in Playgroup, and our children were born in 1981. I went to her 60th birthday just a few weeks ago. So I think playgroups have a very special place in connecting families with young children into a community.

Sinead:

And they do. I am still friends with people from my playgroup, and my parents are still friends with them. So it's a generational thing. So I wonder what is it about these friendships that forge during those child rearing years? Why is it so important to meet people that are going through the same things?

Dorothy Scott:

Well, the test of the friendship is not necessarily that it lasts. Um, it might be that it's really important for a certain period of time. Uh, so I did some research on first-time parent groups run by maternal and child health nurses for, as I said, for the first eight weeks or so. And I was very interested in following them up 18 months to two years later to see whether they were still in existence. And some were, um two-thirds of those parents were still in touch with at least one other person. So it may be that the group didn't continue, particularly after women returned to paid employment, but there may be a friendship that continued. But even when their friendship didn't continue, it meant that when they went to the local shops, they might bump into someone and so they could then have a conversation. It meant when the child started preschool or school, they may already know people. So it isn't that it isn't only that deep and long-lasting relationships can be forged through playgroups. I think the fact that people are going through a similar transition in life does give them a common bond, uh, which perhaps transcends differences that might otherwise exist. And I think that's what's special.

Sinead:

Our social network, um especially after looking after small children, can become detached. Um, and do you think that play group is so beneficial because it gives fathers, siblings, grandparents a sense of belonging?

Dorothy Scott:

Yes, it can. And I think that's one of the exciting things in recent times is to see it evolve from being mother-centered so that grandparents, fathers can become involved. One of my delights as a as a grandmother of a three-year-old when I visited her in Canberra is to go to playgroup with her. And it really is an absolute joy to be part of that world. And so when I talk with her on the phone every week, I can ask her what she did at Playgroup this week. And so it gives us a connection. But yes, I I think that it's uh it's a very special bond that's forged and enables um people to generate those bonds that are necessary, particularly at our time in history when women might work right up, very close to the birth of child. Whereas when I was born in the early 1950s, the common pattern would be that women would cease work on marriage and would have time to forge a neighborhood-based friendship circle before the birth of the first child. And then, of course, few women were in paid employment, um, certainly before children started school. So there were very strong, dense social networks forged by women at the local neighborhood level. And that's changed dramatically with women's position in involvement in paid employment. And so the importance of play groups to substitute for what once would have happened more naturally is really critical in today's world.

Sinead:

So, in this changing climate, how do playgroups create strong, sustainable social networks? What conditions do they need to thrive?

Dorothy Scott:

They need to be inclusive. People need to feel welcomed, people need to not feel the odd person out. So I think there are challenges in how we nurture the welcoming of diversity. Whether that's around social class, whether that's around gender, that men and women are welcome, whether that's around sexual preference of parents or religion or ethnicity, there are many sources of diversity. And so I guess the most important thing is a welcoming, inclusive climate. And that is sometimes a challenge because play groups, like any human group, can reflect the attitudes in the wider society, and it's easy for people to feel different. For example, in my study on first-time parent groups, it was obvious to me when following up 18 months to two years later, that while the groups may have gelled, as the members described it, developed a sense of cohesion in their first eight weeks while the nurse facilitated the group. The pattern was often for the group then to continue to meet in one another's homes. And that immediately highlighted the difference in affluence between families. So I'm thinking about a place like Yarra Rangers, where part of my study was located, and you might have quite uh well-off families on 10 acres on the top of a hilltop. Um, and you might have very low-income families living in what were originally holiday homes built in the 1930s, living in quite financially stressful circumstances. So the issues of social class actually became a barrier. People were embarrassed to have a group come to their home, which was not of the same affluence as someone else's home, which I think is a good reason for having play groups in a neutral community space. So I think we need to be very mindful of the things that make people feel that they're different or not accepted or possibly looked down upon. And given my particular interest in child welfare, in child protection, in children who are at risk of abuse and neglect, I've been very mindful of how families that are doing it very tough, often with high levels of situational stress, often with families with limited formal education, families where the parents themselves may have come from families which didn't nurture them in a way that was ideal, that those families often are very quick to feel out of place. They sometimes feel a slight where it wasn't really intended. They sometimes feel looked down upon without others even knowing that that's what they're feeling. And the tragedy is not only does that mean that some parents remain very isolated and lonely, but it means their children miss out on the vital experiences of experiential learning, of play, of interaction, and the developmental opportunities that presents.

Sinead:

You sought to improve approaches and responses to child abuse and neglect with the strong emphasis on prevention. From afar and from close inspection, what changes did you want to inspire and what changes could you see society making?

Dorothy Scott:

That's a long time ago, and it's very interesting to look back to see how attitudes have changed. It was um it was very difficult in the mid-1970s for there to be any prosecution in cases of child sexual abuse. And I remain v reminded vividly, I never forget, going to a magistrate's court here in the city of Melbourne with a ten-year-old girl who'd been sexually abused by her father. And I remember witnessing the way she was treated in the witness box and actually making a formal complaint about that and having that complaint dismissed. Um we would not put a child in a witness box like that today. And we would have today a much higher awareness, both amongst professionals and the public at large, of child sexual abuse, and would be much more sensitive to the trauma of that for the child. So we've come such a long way. Back then it was just confronting the denial of the very existence of child sexual abuse was probably the first step. Um speaking at conferences with some of my colleagues in psychology and psychiatry would talk about eedipole fantasies that children fantasized sexual encounters with the parent of the opposite sex. Um, family therapy colleagues who talked about the classic collusive triangle. Yes, they acknowledged incest occurred, but um they said it was the seductive daughter and the colluding wife. You you it's very hard to believe that there existed such theoretical frameworks back then in the mid-1970s. And I remember having an article in the Women's Weekly where my colleague and I um were interviewed about child sexual abuse, and it was probably the first time that child sexual abuse had been mentioned in the pages of the Women's Weekly. But we were really, really committed to not just serving those immediately in front of us, but going from case to cause, going to the wider society and trying to change attitudes, we were influential in changing legislation in the way that the evidence of children is taken, the way they're represented, um, the way it's dealt with in court. Um there were so many things, but I guess what stands out for me is that we were not content to just provide a supportive, ameliorative response to the individuals, that we saw the bigger issues which were reflected in the microcosm of individual families, and we were prepared to tackle those at that broader structural level. And I think that's a lesson for us all, regardless of which field we work in, that we need to have a wider view and be prepared to try to tackle the underlying structural factors, not just to try to deal with symptoms at the individual level of suffering, while always doing that as well.

Sinead:

And do you think that play group is a great prementative measure for a whole range of things, not only for the children, but for the parents and carers?

Dorothy Scott:

Yes, yes. We've got some good research on how child children benefit from play groups, but we've also now got some growing body or growing body of research on how it benefits parents. And it's specifically focused on reducing social isolation and strengthening social support. And we've got abundance and evidence on the importance of social support as a factor in preventing mental health problems and in sustaining the morale of families. The morale and emotional and social climate within a family is absolutely critical to the well-being of children and adults alike. And if Playgroup can foster that sense of belonging and connectedness and provide a warm and welcoming environment, it sustains parents in their parenting role, it provides a sense of them being valued. They're doing the most important job in the country. I think Playgroup conveys that.

Sinead:

So society often talks about play as an aside. Something uh sometimes a bit of a frivolous thing that we're going out to play. But play is so vital for humans throughout life. Why is it so especially vital during early childhood?

Dorothy Scott:

Well, I'm probably not the best person to answer that. Um, there are probably people who know more about the role of play in child development. But I think play is how children learn naturally. You provide the opportunities and children will play. Children without toys will still create fantasies and imaginary play, which is very rich, particularly if that is encouraged. And play in adults, um, art, craft is play. There's a lot of play. I love gardening, and that feels to me a bit like playing in the sandpit. Um, we love I love when I swim, watching parents and their children frolicking and playing in the pool, and the absolute delight, not just of the child, but the delight of the parent who is somehow given permission to play in the pool in a way that they're not when they're there on their own, like I am, swimming up and down my lane, but they're actually frolicking and playing like dolphins. So I think play is something all human beings need, but for children it's of absolutely critical importance.

Sinead:

You've had such an interesting life and career. Looking back, what do you think you would have said to your 30-year-old self?

Dorothy Scott:

Oh well. That's a very that's a difficult question for me to answer. I know the answer, but it's actually difficult. Um, when I was 30, I was had my son, but my daughter had not yet been born. And paradoxically, despite having had a very satisfying and stimulating career, what I wish I could say to my 30-year-old self is make room in your life, make all the room you can available for being a mother. And don't rush back to work when it's not a financial necessity, and don't rob yourself as well as your children of those extraordinarily profoundly important and joyful times together when they are very young. So I look back with a certain regret that I suppose early in the life of second wave feminism, I was very focused on my identity in terms of my career and my research. And now looking back, I think it could have still been a satisfying and stimulated career, which could have had a longer period where I was enjoying my children and they were enjoying me in their early years.

Sinead:

Thank you, Dorothy. It's been a joy to speak with you. Thank you.

Mylie:

This episode was hosted by me, Miley Naulendor, and my co host, Janette Half. Who also conducted today's interview. The episode was edited by Jonathan Ravette and mastered by James North Productions. Music by Selena Byrne. And a huge thanks to our little friends Toby and Adelaide, whose voices you've heard on every episode. We have loved hearing from our listeners about what they've gotten out of these conversations. Please keep telling us what you think. Please leave us reviews, positive reviews, and please share this podcast with someone that you think might benefit from this. We really want to spread the word and share these conversations and get these voices out there, and we cannot wait to bring you more. If you've got ideas, if you've got anything you want to share with us, please contact us because we are really excited to keep going with these stories. See ya.