For the Love of Play

S3 EP1: Jacinta Parsons - Keeping Curious And Embracing The Unexpected

• JNP Client • Season 3 • Episode 1

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"I just feel compelled to tell the truth." 
 

In Conversation with Jacinta Parsons – Broadcaster, Writer and Public Speaker

 

To kick off season three of For the Love of Play, we welcome broadcaster, writer and speaker Jacinta Parsons into the studio. She brings warmth, wit and depth to our conversation on play. 

Known for her radio work on ABC Melbourne and her books Unseen and A Question of Age, Jacinta reflects on curiosity, creativity and living with chronic illness.  We explore how play can coexist with hardship, how asking bigger questions shapes our lives and why staying true to yourself matters.  

This episode is a thoughtful and uplifting look at what it means to live playfully, even through life’s challenges. 

About Our Guest 

Jacinta Parsons began her career in radio more than 20 years ago at Triple R and has been speaking with Victorians across the airwaves ever since. Today she is the co-host of The Friday Revue with Brian Nankervis. She has published a memoir about living with Crohn's disease, a condition she has lived with for more than half of her life. A Melburnian through and through, she had the distinction of finishing top of the class in tram conductor training.

Show Links 

Learn More About Playgroup Victoria 

Episode Credits 

Hosted by Mylie Nauendorf and Sinead Halliday. 

Interview conducted by Sinead Halliday. 

Edited by Jonathan Rivett. 

Mastering by James North Productions. 

Music by Selina Byrne. 

And thanks to our little friends Laddy, Lucy, Toby, Andie and Adelaide for voicing the intro. 

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SPEAKER_01

Claygroup Victoria acknowledges the traditional owners of country throughout Australia and their continuing connection to land and community. We pay our respects to them, their cultures, and to their elders, past and present.

SPEAKER_00

For the love of play! For the love of play. For the love of play.

Mylie

For the love of play, an exploration of childhood, family, community, and belonging.

SPEAKER_02

Now that I have a 22-year-old daughter, I've had to learn the art of letting go, which I think fits into this conversation as well because it's letting go of ideas that you have about your role in the world and becoming a witness, you know, just joyfully watching.

Mylie

My name is Miley, and I'm joined by Sinead Halliday. Hey Sinead. Hey Miley, hey to everyone listening. It's season three. We're back. Bebe?

Sinead

We are back.

Mylie

You excited?

Sinead

I am really looking forward to this.

Mylie

Yeah, we are so lucky to be bringing you another series of inspiring conversations. We have such an eclectic lineup of some familiar voices coming up this season, and we cannot wait to share these with you. And to kick off this season, our first guest is a voice you may know, a broadcaster, a writer, a radio maker, a speaker. It is, of course, the one and only Jacinta Parsons. Fun fact, Sinead, about Jacinta is that she went to tram conductor school in the 90s. While she was at uni, she would pop on the green uniform and the brown leather bag and ring the bell on the trams as they left the Brunswick Depot. I just think this is such a classic Melbourne in the 90s fact about Jacinta.

Sinead

It is. I wish that they still did that and had the old school conductors. And I really think this is a reflection of Jacinta's willingness and enthusiasm to be open to new things.

Mylie

Yeah, and Jacinta's really that type of person who, if you see her out and about, she is always ready with a smile.

Sinead

She is. She's playful, as anyone who hears her on the radio knows. But she's also a person of depth. She's been living with a chronic illness for a long time, and I love how Jacinta is forever curious and ready to tune in to people and ask the bigger questions in life, as well as having heaps of fun along the way.

Mylie

And yeah, what a great way to kick off our third season. This is our chat with Jacinta. Ding ding.

Sinead

Jacinta Parsons is a mother of two, an author of three books, a writer of copious articles, and a friend to many. The radio host has been on air for three and a bit decades and has discussed, among other things, the arts, disability, culture, language, and footy. Beginning in community radio at Triple R, Jacinta made her way to the ABC, where she is, in part, a makeup of the Indomitable Duo on a programme called The Friday Review with music enthusiast and raconteur Brian Yankervis. They bring people together to share stories, share songs, but be playful. It is one of those rare spaces where live music is shared akin to the old song around the campfire. I read online Melvin listeners may think of Jacinta Parsons like an awesome extended family member. Jacinta has a disarming quality. She meets people where they are and can lasso the many fun and fascinating characters she meets on radio with kindness and humor. Humility too. She has some understanding about the things that bring us together and connect us, making people feel valued and that they belong. Jacinta, welcome to our podcast.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my god. This is what's good about life is getting an intro like that. I love it. Where did you where did you get that bit about the um lassoing? I love it.

Sinead

That was just inspired by reading about you.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, you wrote that.

Sinead

Okay, I'm gonna have to steal that because it's so beautiful. Thank you. Just into I want to start by asking you what encourages you to speak on such a wide array of topics? What makes you feel comfortable to enter those public arenas?

SPEAKER_02

Um, it's really funny because when people have responded to some of my work, like I'll put a book out or something, and people will say, Oh my god, you're so brave. And I'm like, Oh, am I? Should I should I held back a little? Um, it's interesting because um, you know, I've shared a lot of personal stuff, my health, um, and you know, all parts of my personal life in my writing particularly. Um, and I just sort of feel compelled to tell the truth. I don't know, you know, like just that we all need to feel open to talk about things. And you you do know that, you know, our experiences are often linked, you know, the you the micro is macro in a lot of ways. So particularly writing about illness, I gave a lot of personal details because I wanted to also remove the shame and um the stigma, particularly the illness I have, but also talking about illness and giving it a broader understanding.

Sinead

And can you take us back to your early childhood? What was it like? Can you paint us a bit of a picture?

SPEAKER_02

Yes, I grew up in the set late 70s, early 80s, and I feel like I'm definitely a child of that era where I would sit in the middle of the Holden HJ bench seat at the front because I had three siblings up the back. Um, it was, I think of it as quite adventurous, although it probably wasn't. I grew up in suburban Melbourne, and I um I have such strong memories of kindergarten, like, you know, the walking there, the smell of paint. I can still smell it, the climbing on the outdoor equipment, but also some of the thinking, which I love, you know, like how I was trying to work stuff out, like what the what the mechanisms of of that environment were, um, what the teachers were like, did they like me? You know, all those sorts of things. I can remember that. I can remember how the clothing felt on me. Yeah.

Sinead

And how did some of those early experiences shape you as you grew older?

SPEAKER_02

It's really interesting, isn't it? Because it's hard sometimes to draw that line as to what the influence is. But, you know, I have remained curious and excited, and I think I always was, you know, I love learning and being in the world, and I I still do. I feel, you know, a a kind of unnatural excitement sometimes about things that aren't really that exciting. So I think it set up a playfulness, which is, I guess, what we're talking about today, that I actually center as an important aspect of my life. Like play for me, I think in every part of my life, is possibly the central drive.

Sinead

We often hear about people talking about connecting to their inner child. And uh I brought to mind this interview with Chrissy Swann where she said she has a photograph of herself that she keeps really close to remind her of who she really was and who she is. As life goes on and challenges and complications all come into the mix. Do you often connect with a younger part of yourself and find that to be a steadying force?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, that is another huge kind of thesis in my work and in my life. Um, I just wrote a book called A Wisdom of Age, and I went to the other end of the age spectrum to talk to elders, 70, 80, and 90. And part of the thesis, part of the thinking is that we often sort of silo ourselves off into age groups. Um, and we think about the younger person as sort of almost being separate. You know, you imagine them as someone else almost. But I think it's really interesting how connected we more and more connected as we age that we become to that younger person and that younger version of ourselves that perhaps had more freedom, less responsibility, perhaps, you know. And I often ask those women, where is their young girl? And they all know. And I I feel like, you know, this research that says we all feel about 20 years younger than what it says on our license, you know. But I'm probably even more extreme than that, in that I feel probably in my teenage years, you know, and I feel connected to that spirit of fun and absurdity that I absolutely loved, particularly in that era and time.

Sinead

You do have that youthful energy about you. And I wonder energy is one of the most powerful things that you can bring to a room. So, where do you acquire a positive sense of energy?

SPEAKER_02

I this is I'm such a cheese ball with this stuff, but I've been thinking a lot about it lately and why, you know, there is so much energy and joy for the work in some ways, and talking to people on the radio and whatever else I do. And I think because of my work, I have almost trained myself to look for the best in people immediately, because that's the job. You have to kind of interview people or encounter them and get to the good stuff, like you know, and so if I can see it, then it will often come out. And I think in that exchange with somebody, it's it's actually profoundly beautiful, you know. And so I just love that. I just love humans. Although I'm introverted, I must say, I love ideas and excitement and the unexpected to happen.

Sinead

So I'm interested in asking you about a topic you've written about, which is solitude and how you've untangled that. What do you think is the difference between feeling lonely and then basking in solitude? You know, we've got this loneliness epidemic.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

Sinead

So what have you learned about yourself through exploring that?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and and to really um kind of put home the point, we really do have a loneliness epidemic for so many reasons, and it needs us to take that really seriously and address it. But um, even in conversations again with some of the elder women, there is a point, I think, that you have to understand how to find the joy in the aloneness. And there, like then once you find that joy, and that's the solitude idea where being alone is nurturing, not um, you know, taking anything away, you're not missing anything, you're actually growing something else. And um, I've definitely been lonely, I definitely feel lonely, but um, after I separated from my partner of 27 years, I rolled around in the joy. Sorry, I love great, great human, but I had the opportunity to be alone for large periods of time. And um, I just sort of thought, okay, what can I do with this? And I just found it opens up a whole area. If you ask that question, you know, what could I do? What is what is my favorite aspects of nourishing? And so, you know, I've really developed an artistic practice because of that. And just the joy of sitting by yourself and staring as well, I think is underrated part of a creative life, you know. So it's that and more, but you know, it's not to underestimate the the true impact of loneliness in our lives.

Sinead

I've said this before on the podcast because it's something that really stayed with me, and it was a neuroscientist, and she was on Gardening Australia, and she said one of the best things you can do is sit in the garden and just observe. Don't write, don't be texting, don't be calling. She said it just allows your brain some processing time. And I wonder with this idea of loneliness that people feel conspicuous in their aloneness instead of feeling that if they do go back to that childhood self and think, what did I used to do? Because as children, being alone in a space or a garden, it you you'd get immersed in something and then you'd be away.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Endless possibilities because I think some of it is um sort of self-limiting concepts of how we equate, how we are loved and needed in the world, that if we're alone, that is in some way a deficit of us. But it's absolutely that. When like I I travel a lot overseas by myself as well, and there is nothing greater than sitting on a chair and just watching. And what I agree about the processing, but it also helps connect with the wonder, you know, like the imagination, the kind of things that we don't spend anywhere near enough time on to um generate. I noticed when I had children, my own, that life went from being up here to being down in the ground again, you know, where you would be looking at the dirt. And honestly, there is hours of joy to be found if you just even look at a square of dirt, what's happening in it. And if we allow ourselves that joy of play and of release, I suppose, from some of the ideas we have about what we should be doing and who we are. I just think, yeah, it is enormously beneficial for mental health, for creativity, for joy, for calm, for peace, all the things that we seek, you know, and it's that simple, which is absurd in itself.

Sinead

You really make the most of a lot of opportunities, and they could be things that are a bit scary. But how have you found that saying yes to opportunities is beneficial for you?

SPEAKER_02

That's a really great question for me, because again, it was a very conscious moment in my life. Um, we've talked about my illness vaguely, but it was a very significant period of time and a very significant um disability, I suppose, where I was really unable to participate in the world the way I my heart wanted to. Um, and so in that moment, it's similar to what we just said, when you're restricted, you almost become expansive. You know, you start to see things very differently because you are not unconscious to the gratitude I guess you feel about feel about any of the small things that you're able to do. And when I had that for such a period of time that when I sort of became well enough again to go into the world, I realized there's actually nothing to be scared of. It's actually just all a big fat game. And it's not about getting it right or being good at it. I think honestly, one of the tricks that has really worked for me is that I'm very comfortable being mediocre at things. And this goes back to childhood where we just are. It's not about are you the best artist? Are you the best at this? Are you good enough to learn how to play an instrument? Are you, you know, all these limitations that we grow in our minds. When you're a child, you just do it. And I think it's a similar thing to saying, yes, that it isn't about being amazing. It's about the joy of exploration. And it sounds kind of maybe difficult in some way because things are scary. But when you reframe it and when you become more playful, it's true about the things that you're doing, and you take the stakes away as being whether it's going to actually um mean who you are or not, you know, it changes the game. It makes everything kind of this adventure rather than an opportunity to actualize yourself, which you know, or be something. We're not anything ever, you know. And it's getting back to those ideas.

Sinead

I was thinking about your friend Sami Shah. He you guys were on the ABC radio together, and his wife, who spent some time in an Iranian prison. And I just thought about her because she had nothing in isolation, and from that, she created all of these possibilities. She learnt a whole new language, and it just shows how reframing the way we look at things can literally change everything.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. And returning, you know, the child state is a really interesting one, and obviously it's uncomplicated in lots of ways, but we complicate things in our lives unnecessarily. We add a lot of barriers, kind of that we've been taught, I suppose, particularly as we age about what we should and shouldn't be doing or what we should be trying. Like this idea of um trying, of being curious of discovery. Somehow we've been taught that that sort of stops at a certain age, then you get on with what you've actually decided you are, you make a career, you know, all that kind of stuff. It's just absolutely not true, you know. I mean, it's got a truth to it in the way that the world is constructed, but it's not true. It's not how we should be thinking about ourselves. And part of my work that, you know, doing with elder community is to actually highlight that, that they don't, you know, there's so many that do not stop playing and being curious and finding because they haven't limited their their kind of perception of who they could be still every single day that they wake up.

Sinead

And how did your perception of yourself and your identity change when you became a mum?

SPEAKER_02

Whoa, that was like that's probably been the most um surprising kind of. I sort of thought I'd be better at it. I had this image of me being this, you know, bountiful, nurturing woman. But um, I just I'm a different mother than I thought I would be. Um it really changed the way, you know, you feel vulnerable, I suppose, in the world as well. You realize you've got this human outside you that is you, you know. And that can be restrictive in some ways about how you see the world and the risks that you want to take. Um, but my children have, you know, taught me everything really about all of that, the complexity of that love, how to allow them as well, you know. Like now that I have a 22-year-old daughter, I've had to learn the art of letting go, which I think fits into this conversation as well, because it's letting go of ideas that you have about your role in the world and becoming a witness, you know, just joyfully watching. And I think that's an interesting perspective from a parenting point of view, that really what we're doing this whole journey is actually about cutting something very precious loose to be in the world without us. And so then it becomes this quite beautiful experience of witness, not of necessarily telling a child how to live, but of allowing them to do that in the way that resonates with them. And I think we probably should be doing that younger, you know, with our children at younger ages, even, just allowing them. To be, you know, and watching rather than telling. And I'm not good at that, but I'm learning that skill.

Sinead

That was a really moving conversation that you brought about on the ABC when you were saying how you were feeling about your eldest child leaving home. And I remember um there was a dad who was saying that he would just walk to the netball courts where he used to go with his daughters.

SPEAKER_02

There's something so precious about that time of play again. It really is, it really is about that, you know, where you are people finding out the world through those sorts of interactions, you know, and you're watching your children and you're part of that exploration and discovery phase. And that also helps with your own discovery kind of recognition. Um, and then, you know, that time shifts. And I found that really tough. I thought I'd be really cool about it. I was like, since my daughter was very young, I would go, you're getting out of this house when you're 18, just like I did. Go and find the world. You don't need me, you know. And then she did that. And I was like, you do need me. What are you doing? I need you, you know. I hadn't understood how much I had identified with being her mom in a very particular way. And it was actually a really wonderful, horribly painful experience to go through where she cut me loose. And I had to accept the change between us. And since that acceptance, it's always about acceptance and waste for, um, it's just even it's even richer in some ways. There's a richness to it that's very different from that beautiful time when they're playing netball and you're coaching it, or you know, all the things that you do with them. But there is something um I think even more, you know, enriching.

Sinead

You wrote in your book about talking to your friend after she lost a baby, and you said many years ago, one of my friends endured multiple early miscarriages and the deaths of two babies at birth. I remember listening to her as she described how it felt impossible to deal with their deaths. I told her I thought she was brave. At the time I thought it was the right word. I'd also been dealing with a miscarriage of my own, and the idea of facing any of it again in another attempt to have a baby felt brave to me. What did you learn from that experience about how to be with someone when they're going through something, whether it is a chronic illness or losing a baby, something life-altering. What did your friend teach you about how to be there for someone?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, just that. That again, that that idea of witness, of just being there to see. And for me, reflecting back on my own experience related to that was the friends that sat and watched and knew and felt it are so precious to me now because they were there, not to solve it, not to fix it, not to give me advice, not to tell me what they thought about it, but just to just to see it. And so that they know that so deeply about me now, that that's part of who I am for them, and it's really part of who I am. Um, so that when I meet new people who don't have that history, it's different, you know. But um that uh that listening and that holding is always the only thing that's required, you know. Um, I didn't need to say to her how I felt she was, because she had a very different experience than what I was having. You know, and I think that's sometimes one of the challenging things, particularly about parenting, is that because it's got a can like it's parenting, it's one, it's one idea, but because the nuance is so different for human and human, how we become a parent, who we parent, who we are, all of that stuff, we kind of think that there is a way or a type. But really knowing and understanding and respecting such diverse experiences of it, I think is really essential to be really there for each other. We really don't know how things are for other families as much as we think we do, maybe sometimes.

Sinead

And what is the importance of a village that we have around us and things like saying hello to your neighbour or saying good morning to someone that you're walking by who you see in your area? How do these little touchstones give us a sense that we matter?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and that we're safe. You know, I think we hear so much in the world about how wrong it is, and it is, and how dangerous and it is, but actually 80% more of that is actually the other, you know. The real story of our living is that um we are around people just like us, wanting just the same things, you know, and loving in the same way and hurting in the same way, and wanting the world to be wonderful. We have different ideas about how we go about that, and some of the other ideas drive us bananas. But I think when we smile at each other, and I do do that, I mean I just love it. I'm introverted, but if I can have a quick exchange with somebody, I will. And it's interesting what comes out of other people when there's a really genuine kind of joy in it, you know, like people respond beautifully, you know. Um, and it just shows that we're not alone. It's like looking up and seeing the world properly rather than versions of it that we have swimming around in our heads. And every time you do that, it just affirms that truth that actually, far out, you know, there is an enormous amount of beauty around us rather than the opposite.

Sinead

I was listening to you and Brian and Kervis on Saturday morning, and I just caught myself smiling. You're talking about Bowls Club, and lots of people were calling up about the Ocean Grove Bowls Club. And talk back radio has such an aliveness to it. There's a tonality, you hear the humor in the voice, the inflection, you hear a falter in a voice. Why in 2026 is radio valuable to us as a community? Why is it important?

SPEAKER_02

I just finished my PhD on this topic. I wrote a um a thesis for that, um, all about how radio allows really significant and important community connection. So beyond that shock jock idea of division, actually, the real work that's going on with talkback radio, particularly on your AM dial, is that what you hear is real-time for humans that live with you. So there's something enormously intimate about that exchange, firstly. There's also an enormous amount of risk and spontaneity. I see it as playful. Like that, I really think of radio as play. How can we do something and change it and see what's going to happen? And, you know, like take a risk and enjoy each other's company. And I just think we get a real, like the delight of that stuff. Again, I'm so cheesebows, but I'm no, I'm very anyway, I just feel like I'm so cheesy, but I feel so serious about the need for us to hear each other in all of those wild and strange ways. You know, lawn bowls. What? And then you hear these stories, and people, you know, it is it it wakes up other stuff inside us, you know, really banal topics end up showing us who we are to each other in ways that are really loving. And again, knowing your community, because these are geographic radio shows too, so you know that this is within your area, and you get to know the callers and you get to know their life story. You know, I've had a caller, Avis, who called us during COVID. She was turning a hundred and she asked us to come to her um retirement village for her 100th birthday. Long story short, she called us all the time. She asked pretty much for the same song, You Are My Sunshine. We would always play it for her. And she became a really important part of people's lives just by her voice, just by the human part of it. What she represented, that voice was my grandma, your grandma, an elder that we love, a beautiful life, you know, all the things. And um, we did celebrate her birthday, but it was online and we had her on and all that sort of stuff. It was incredible. But she died um at after she'd reached 100. And the grief that we all felt, I cried for an entire weekend. I couldn't stop crying. I'd never met her, but I'd met her that way. The audience felt the same way. And I ended up going to her funeral and delivering like a 30-page um book of text messages from the audience telling the family what she had meant to them. And that for me indicates kind of that importance. You know, it's probably the last space where we are unprogrammed, we're just people being people and hearing each other and having that intimacy of voice. Do not get me started on this because I will never stop talking about it.

Sinead

My friend and I this morning were discussing how a streaming service it is feeding you the same sort of things. You're in that algorithm and echo chamber. And I think radio opens that up in the same way that a newspaper does, because you think, oh, I'm not really interested in that. But then before you know it, you're listening to it, and then you're getting that enlightenment that you otherwise wouldn't be exposed to.

SPEAKER_02

That's right. We are so curated now that we have limited our horizons. We're not, you know, we're much more comfortable being given what we want rather than given something that we didn't know we want, but actually becomes a really important sort of insider understanding. And often it's those things as well. Like how how it works, it feels like, is that the more kind of outside your realm, the greater impact it has in a way, you know. If you stay comfortable always with the way you think and the way you feel and the things that you do, it's limiting kind of that expansive capacity that we all have to go deeper and you know, to it's it's just the more of in a way, you know, and it's empathy building too. Like if we don't walk outside our shoes, then we really do not understand what it is to be a human and all the diverse ways that we've come to this earth, you know. And that's so important for all of us to have that, you know, for a good human world.

Sinead

Well, you definitely uh walked outside your usual path and interviewed a lot of people. You're doing a lot of investigation into intergenerational relationships and how older people in our societies feel and think and are treated. And I wonder what that taught you about life and how you treat others regardless of age or where they've come from, and the idea that everybody does have a story.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my gosh, and beyond, like it's it's quite ridiculous. Again, these ideas we have that someone is an age, or you know that that's an identifying thing. Um I have a 95-year-old friend who I work with, really. We traveled to Sydney and do keynotes, and we've done a couple of those. And I'm actually her manager, she's a stand-up comedian, started at 93. Um, and what was interesting for me is particularly when we traveled, is how infantilized she was. So suddenly she became the child again in people's eyes, and she didn't really have much capacity. And I was so shocked. You know, this is a woman who's lived deeply, is really smart, you know, has had a wild life, yet we were talking to her like people were talking to her like she was a child. Um, and so I would always just sort of think, you have no idea. You know, when we make these judgments and we do it across the board, all our intersections, it's a human trait to categorize and sort of think we understand something to help us manage the world, but it's reductive and it reduces any um proper kind of insight into the human. And meeting all of these elders, they're all entirely against what we have been told happens, you know. Every single one of them had something really wonderful and unique because of their age as well, you know.

Sinead

Yeah. You're a member on the board of the Melbourne Theatre company Roller Coaster. So Roller Coaster Theatre is Australia's largest professional ensemble of trained actors with intellectual disabilities. What has it been like to be part of that community?

SPEAKER_02

It's been really clarifying for stuff, I guess I know, but putting it into practice for me, same as what we just said, um, we limit the world around us and the people around us by um really unnecessary concepts of what it means to be someone. So intellectual disability within our community has been very much treated as deficit, you know, you can't do everything. Well, in fact, you can, and you just do it um perhaps differently than the mainstream cohort would, but quite frankly, often in a much more interesting way. And just sort of really being clear that we bring our life, you know, whatever it is, whatever the kind of humanity is, you know, however it comes through, it it like we we've got such a terrible habit of reducing and thinking we understand that when we often don't, and we limit opportunities because we think that that person can't. So it's just been a really important um clarity around that. Like the work that is made by this theater company is bold, it's it sits outside some of the ideas that we might have about what it's like to live um as someone who has intellectual disability. Like it just breaks some of those really um unnecessary stigmas and stereotypes. And I think we could do that, you know, with everyone. Aging is the same thing. We need to break these ideas that we have because we almost perform into them, you know. Oh, I'm getting old now, I can't, dot, dot, dot. No, it's just not true. You know, similarly with all the different ways that our, you know, our neurodiversity, our intellectual disability allows just for something else, you know. And uh, you know, it's also being in that position where I am where you can kind of bridge that space. So, you know, mainstream kind of world, you know, that I understand to a degree. But of course I'm neurodiverse too, so it's like, you know, to a degree. And then sort of find a way to ensure that um everybody can find a space there. I think that's what it is, you know, with integrity and with dignity, all the rest.

Sinead

Well, opening up those possibilities further, one thing that people may not know about you, Jacinta, is that you were first in your class at Tram Conductor School.

SPEAKER_02

I I really am ashamed to say that a lot of people know that because I bring it up all the time. Um, yeah, another you know what? This is all linked because when I was in my uh early 20s, was I even 19? I can't remember, I was young. And I just loved the idea of doing ridiculous things. Like I wanted to go and try out for the Australian ballet because they have open auditions, and I was like, I can't do ballet, but how fun would it be just to go and audition? Or just like thinkings. And I thought, how outrageously ridiculous would it be to become a tram conductor, slash the best thing in the world, because I had admired the green uniforms for so long. I thought they were so cool, and I was like, bugger it. And so I got the job, and then I went to tram conductor school, and um, we did unreal things for two weeks, like learning how to stand up on a tram when it does an emergency break. You know, you think that's just natural? No, you get taught it. Um, and then I came first. I mean, I like how embarrassing. If there's anyone listening, they're like, bud, chill, but still, I did get the best mark. And I said to the teacher, because they were handing out grey uniforms, remember that time when it transitioned? And I was like, I'm the only reason I'm here is for a green uniform. Like, can I please? And he said, because you finished first, you can go into the storeroom, you can get yourself a green uniform, and you can wear that. So, you know, it's it was beautiful. And again, play. It was all about mucking around and you know, seeing how far you can push a relationship with a passenger, you know, for fun. I would go up to people and I would say to them, I just want you to know that you do not have to buy a ticket off me today. You don't. And they'll be like, what? And I was like, let's just let's just call it no worries today. And they'd be like, is this a trick? You know, like just wacko, you know, stuff, just to sort of test the boundaries, I think, as much as anything.

Sinead

It's part of your early, well, your whole 20s, isn't it? It's an era of exploring and working out who you are and where you're going.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And I just think, you know, it gets sort of maybe a bit serious, you know, unintentionally, when we hit our 20s. What are we finding a job or a university? What's going to happen? Are we meeting people that will be important to us for our lives? Like the setup is intense, but it's all not true. But, you know, it's hard not to get sucked into that because there's a reality to it as well, you know, and surviving in this world. But I just, you know, I think we don't set up our teenagers in your 12 to sort of know, you know what, you are gonna go on a journey you have no idea about. Just get into it, you know, pull your sleeves up and go for it.

Sinead

And that was a time that was challenging enough for you because that's when you were diagnosed with Crohn's disease. In what ways have you navigated illness over a long stretch? What's fortified your sense of self during those challenging chapters in your life?

SPEAKER_02

In fact, I think challenge is the fortifier, you know. I think it's the only way that we are forced. I I needed to be forced to really address things that are not working. You know, for me, what it did was completely annihilate my entire life, which was devastating for quite a period of time. You know, I couldn't finish my degree, I couldn't go out with my friends, I was bedridden, I was in so much pain. Um, and then came a point where it was like, well, okay, how can I do this? If there's no way around it, what can what can it be? And sort of that really allowed for a freedom a bit from expectations, I think, of what I thought I should be doing. It was like, well, what do I want to do? And that was when I started in radio. I never would have done that ever had it not been for going through that kind of totaling that illness did for me. Because before that I was too scared, didn't know how to. And then, you know, illness just uh taught me there is nothing to be lost. Just, you know, go and do what you can, but also just do it in that kind of not high stakes way.

Sinead

Are you familiar with Miranda Hart's book, Miranda Hart the English Canadian? Um she has written about her own chronic illness and then she split it up into little treasures that she found along the way that got her through. And I think one of the hardest things when you're unwell is perhaps the idea that you're disappearing and people are gonna forget about you or you're missing out. Or also I think society I think are good with saying, Oh, you're unwell, so here's some flowers and here's a card um and now it's fixed.

SPEAKER_02

And get on with it all.

Sinead

Yeah, yeah. So having been there yourself, what advice do you have for people who are there right now in it, but also people who are unsure about how to be there for that person when they feel like it might be too private?

SPEAKER_02

No, it's it's such a great question. We're so uncomfortable in that world where we can't fix things for other people and we think we're gonna say something wrong and we're gonna upset, or we're getting annoyed with them because they aren't getting better, and really they should be. And all those really complicated feelings that we have about what we think of ourselves. We should really be. I'm sure you could get out of bed. There's lots of there's lots of stuff that goes on that's really complicated. And the person often, I think, who is unwell, um, there can be massive isolation as a result of that. And I just want to recognize that I think it's that's where the toughness is mostly. Like obviously it's pain and illness, but isolation of experience is really hard to communicate to the world outside you what this is and to have it really understood. There's very few people that I think have a capacity to for to understand it. And I think we need to grow that um capacity with all of us. I think again, it's the same thing as everything. You don't have to know anything. You just have to say, How are you? You know, what is this? I just want to feel and understand and hear it and and be there as much as I can to have an awareness of that with you, rather than how about you try this? How about we get you fixed? How about we, you know, and it's definitely something I learned in terms of my own talking with other people. I'm not here to fix your problems or make you feel better or hope that what I say will be comforting. It's not my job. My job is actually just to listen to you and to acknowledge what you are saying and be kind of a mirror to it or a, again, a witness to it. I just think we've got to stop hoping that the world will just be a normal world around us. There's so many complications with our lives that don't need to be almost, if we allow there to be difference, you know? But for anyone who's experiencing it, it's just a huge amount of compassion for that. I just think it's super tough to be isolated in that way. But again, I think that's where you're called on in a big way to find those reserves, you know. Everything we've said, it's the same thing. It's like, how do I find joy in a day where I can't get out of bed? What am I gonna do? Because I can't do the things that feel like it's me. Um and I guess you just have to try and keep connected to you. What is it about you, even though you're restricted now? The self is still there, the human is still, the spirit is still. You might be exhausted and can't, but I do think that there is a way to find a connection back, even in those particularly sometimes in those really, really hard times.

Sinead

I was thinking about how doctors often now prescribe outside time to people. And for you, you got into running after a period of time, uh, and it could be after an illness or after an injury or after you've had a baby. What is the power of taking that step to go outside or start that thing to be in your body, to have a sensory experience in your body?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's another really good question. And you're speaking to a woman who's been struggling to get out with her runners on at the moment. I really have to train for a race that I'm doing. Well, I'm not a race, I'm not racing anyone, but I'm run that I'm doing later in the year. Uh, and it it is, I think it's just so important because again, we live so much inside our minds, and often the answer is in our body, not our minds, not our thinking, not our solving problems, but also just allowing the body to be and to accept its pain, accept its emotional state, just you know, be with it. We avoid it a lot. I think that's a lot of our avoidance, is how it feels to be inside this body. Um, but you actually realize the more you encounter it and allow it and not be frightened of it, or um then I you are able to find kind of a love of it and uh an acceptance of it. And uh so running for me was the way to do that. And you know, I imagined in my head that I was Cliff Young, the guy who ran when he was like 70 or something from Melbourne to Sydney. And I just remembered how he ran, which was like barely lifting his feet. So in my mind, I just did that, you know, it's just little steps. I think we have these big ambitions to when we want to change, we want to change massively and become a runner or be outside, or you know, and all the things that but it was actually just like tiny, tiny things, just one by one, and acknowledging, you know, what it means and how it's changing you or whatever as well.

Sinead

Yeah, it made me think of Claire Baudic in her book, and she wrote about just getting to the mailbox and spelling a flower, and then the next day getting a bit further and further, and then how somehow being a bit stronger in your body makes you stronger in your mind.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, because the mind is really not our best friend. Like it's it's a tool, it's really important because it helps you eat food and do all the things, but there's so much stuff in there that has been put into us, not chosen in a lot of ways. Thinking about how do I feel about my body, how do I feel about myself, what is my experience of being lonely, all the things that actually are created up here not are often not the best for us. And so I think if we can be more physical, we kind of reduce that impact of what the mind does to the body. Going the other way is like, okay, my body feels like this, and it changes the way that we think about that sort of stuff as well. Gives us a sense of our strength, it's movement, you know, you have to the the energy has to move through you. It's just acknowledging what an important part the body is, and we just haven't really, I think we are so mind kind of centric as a community that we haven't pushed enough into understanding that the body probably has all the answers.

Sinead

Jacinti, you have been an absolute delight. You give, you give so much to all of us, and it can really change the feeling of an entire day for people through the radio. So thank you. I wanted to finish asking you about friendship because you describe yourself as an introvert and I understand that. But what is the importance of getting out into the world? I think Beatrix Potter says, you know, you you have to go and launch yourself into the world and look upon it as an adventure.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I agree with that, and sometimes if you're too shy, or you're just not feeling like you can be a human's human, you know, like chatting is hard, or you're like, oh God. I think being out amongst people is almost as beneficial sometimes. Like I love op shopping and just being around people and just having that energy, I think is really heal as healing as anything. Also, just really small exchanges in the world, like you because as an introvert, you just want it to be kind of contained and know how it's going to go and not be doing it for a time that you you're not sure about and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, I love chatting to the shop dudes, or you know, just like that. And that connection, I think, is really important. Um, but not putting too much pressure on on that, I think, too. And the adventure can be yourself, but in the world, and knowing yourself amongst the world, I think is as powerful as anything.

Sinead

Well, let's go and do that. Let's get out, go to some op shops and see what we can find.

SPEAKER_02

Hey, yes, I'm really excited. I've been op shopping like a maniac lately. Good stuff has been purchased.

Sinead

Okay, we'll have to talk more about that. Jacinta, thanks so much for being part of our podcast.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you so much, and thank you for this focus on play and the way that we relate to ourselves as younger humans and all the things that that, because I think that's might be the answer to everything.

Mylie

You've been listening to season three of For the Love of Play. Thanks to Jacinta for being so generous with her time. This interview was conducted by Sinead Halliday. Sinead hosted the top of this episode with me, Miley Nowendorf. The episode was edited by Jonathan Ravette, with mastering by James North Productions, and music by Selena Byrne. And a huge thanks to our little friends Lucy, Laddie, Andy, Adelaide, and Toby, whose voices you hear throughout this podcast.playgroup.org.au. Did you enjoy listening to this podcast? We really hope that you did, and we would love you to spread the word. You can do that by leaving us a review on whatever platform you're listening to this on. Five stars only, please. And we would love you to tell your friends and family about it. Please share the love. Thanks!

SPEAKER_00

See you later, alligator. See you later, alligator.