.png)
For the Love of Play
A podcast created by Playgroup Victoria exploring childhood, community, family and belonging.
For the Love of Play
S3 EP4: Nelly Thomas - Writing Your Own Script
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
"A good comedian speaks truth to power."
In Conversation with Nelly Thomas – Comedian, Author and Broadcaster
In the fourth episode of For the Love of Play's third season, we shoot the breeze with comedian Nelly Thomas.
She discusses being a BMX champion at a young age, the fact that boredom often acts as a catalyst for creativity, coming to Melbourne from Western Australia to pursue postgrad studies and the way her life changed after stumbling into the world of comedy.
Nelly also talks about being the first person in her family to go to university, and about becoming an author after growing up in a rural, working-class home without many books.
The conversation also covers neurodiversity, a subject that Nelly has thought about carefully and written about extensively.
About Our Guest
Nelly Thomas is a comedian, conversationalist and companion to many through her writing and broadcasting. She shares human experiences, seeking to find meaning in topics that challenge us and connect us: culture, equality, health, gender and neurodiversity. Through candid humour and stories, Nelly brings us together, highlighting that that understanding can be a bridge between people.
Show Links
- Website: For the Love of Play
- Listen to all episodes: Buzzsprout
- Follow us on Instagram: @fortheloveofplaypodcast
Learn More About Playgroup Victoria
- Website: playgroup.org.au
- Instagram: @playgroupvicofficial
- Facebook: Playgroup Victoria
- LinkedIn: Playgroup Victoria
Episode Credits
Hosted by Mylie Nauendorf and Sinead Halliday.
Interview conducted by Sinead Halliday.
Edited by Jonathan Rivett.
Mastering by James North Productions.
Music by Selina Byrne.
And thanks to our little friends Laddy, Lucy, Toby, Andie and Adelaide for voicing the intro.
Enjoyed This Episode?
Subscribe to the podcast so you never miss a conversation. If this episode resonated with you, please share it with friends and family.
Claygroup Victoria acknowledges the traditional owners of country throughout Australia and their continuing connection to land and community. We pay our respects to them, their cultures and to their elders, past and present.
SPEAKER_00For the love of play. For the love of play. For the love of play.
MylieFor the love of play, an exploration of childhood, family, community and belonging.
SPEAKER_04One of the things I remember because I'd worked in policy and you know, I worked for the Council of Homeless Persons and a range of things. I would write these like beautiful policy statements or position papers or whatever. And you know, even as an academic, same thing. You don't have a sense of it being effective. And I remember thinking, oh comedy could be quite different. Like, oh maybe I can actually say something with the humour.
MylieHello and welcome to For the Love of Play. It is season three. My name is Miley, and I am joined by the wonderful Sinead Halliday. How are you going over there, Sinead?
SineadHello to the wonderful Miley, and hey to our wonderful listeners.
MylieWe have a pretty cool episode today. We're joined by author, comedian, and broadcaster Nellie Thomas. We recently had the pleasure of having Nellie speak at an event that we ran, and we knew that we just had to get her on the podcast to share more of her insight. I was having a listen to this conversation last night, and it just felt like I was sitting on the couch, having a cupper, chatting with a friend, talking about life and just all of the things. It did feel like that.
SineadNellie and I we spoke about parenthood, friendship, human connection, neurodiversity, and the importance of self-expression through the different chapters of life.
MylieYeah, I love the way that Nellie articulates that you know you don't always have to accept those scripts that society hands you about how you need to be showing up and what is expected. And it's really about coming back to being auth authentic and being you. And we've said this in the past, this is such a common theme that comes through these conversations that we're having with guests. It's just being authentic and being in your truth. So we hope that listeners get a lot of comfort and confidence listening to this discussion. So let's jump into it. Make a cuppa, jump on the couch and join us for a chat with Nellie.
SineadIn one sitting, I am immersed in the personal experiences of homelessness, gender, culture, journalism, and why a bit of nonsense TV every now and then is good for us. Nellie is a conversation starter. She's a writer of books, a comedian, a mother, and someone who encourages a freedom in us to be oneself in a world that can often shy away from our differences and unfamiliarity. Nellie treats it as a community service to dispel misconceptions and embrace the strengths in us all. Nellie said to look for our strengths and to understand that brains are like fingerprints, uniquely, wonderfully ours. Nellie, welcome to our podcast.
SPEAKER_04Ah, thank you, Sinead. That was just it's such a beautiful intro because normally when you're in my line of work, you get an intro of she did this, and then she did like you basically they read your bio. Um, so to know that you've like engaged with my work and thought about it, and you know, it's special, so thank you.
SineadThank you, Nellie. Have you always enjoyed writing human interest stories? Oh, that's an interesting question.
SPEAKER_04Um I've always enjoyed humans, right? I've always been interested in humans. I'm definitely a people person. In terms of writing, like I didn't grow up in a family that really valued that. Like we didn't have books in the house, it wasn't that kind of um environment. So I don't think it would have occurred to me as a kid to write or be a writer. Um, I mean, I had to write things for school, and I noticed I found writing fiction a lot more challenging than writing, I don't know, like a biography of a famous person or uh I loved doing reports, you know, science reports or whatever. So I guess the signs were there, but you know, as we know, you your family shapes um your expectations of what you can do when you're young. So I don't think it would never have occurred to me that I would end up being a writer, no.
SineadSo what was your childhood like? Did you have siblings? What was your family like?
SPEAKER_04So very rural West Australian, working class, you know, family. Um, mum and dad both, you know, didn't have the opportunity to have the education that I had, that's for sure. Like a classic post-Whitlam story, really, where you had two pretty smart people, um, but for people of their background, there's no way they would have finished school, let alone gone to university. So I was the first in the family to go to uni, and you know, that was a mixed bag because I think one of the things you kind of alluded to in my intro, I do talk a lot about class because I don't think we talk about it enough. And one of the things that I noticed is like there's a kind of narrative that if you come from my sort of background and you make it to uni, everyone will be happy. That's not actually always the case. Like it's quite it's quite a mixed bag, I think, for people who come from a different background and land in a different place because there's a disconnect, right, between you and your family. There can be. Um, and like I remember my parents going, why don't you just stay in town and like get a job at the bank? Like they kind of didn't understand why I would even want to go to uni, you know. So that is that can be hard to navigate, and I don't think we kind of talk about that enough. Um childhood, one brother, um, lots of sport, you know, classic country town kind of gal. Like I guess where I was a bit different, I rode BMX. Um, I was a BMX champion. So for a little girl in the 1980s, that was pretty unusual. But the sport bit wasn't like that's country life, you know, netball, basketball, softball, like you play anything you can basically in a in a small town. Um, I remember a mix of on the downside, there was a lot of boredom. Although I think actually now in the modern world, I think we could do with a bit more boredom, but that's another thing. On the upside, I guess that made us really creative, like particularly in terms of play. We'd have to create our own worlds because you know, we didn't have amusement parks and movie theatres, like we didn't even have a McDonald's shenade, you know. Like it was it was like go up the bush, which was what we'd call bush land, which I lived just near, and like make a cubby and you know, allocate roles to people and role play essentially. So lots of freedom, lots of walking around, fine line between freedom and neglect, you know. Like I think there were lots of times, if I look at the stuff that we did, we sort of romanticized the good old days. But geez, there was a lot of danger um and and a lot of luck in whether or not you came to be harmed with that freedom. Um, but I remember enjoying it and just I mean, can you imagine I would finish school? I'm talking like grade one and just walk to the pool on my own, you know, and just go to the pool with my friends. Like that's lovely. Also, can you imagine a modern parent being able to do that, both in terms of the walking there and then being unsupervised at a pool? So, you know, lots of freedom is the way I'd probably characterize it. I mean, the town I was in, you know, it's over 40 for most of the most of the summer. We didn't have air conditioning, the school didn't have air conditioning. Uh, so there was a lot of that kind of stuff. And we had a big pipeline that ran ran through town. Anyone from WA would know about the CYO kind of pipeline. So that transports water from Perth to right up to Kalgooli. Um, and we would walk up there and just lay on it because it was there was cool water, you know, flowing through it. So, and catch frogs and I mean, you know, it sounds it sounds idyllic. It wasn't all idyllic, um, but some of those things were lovely.
SineadAnd was it university that brought you to Melbourne?
SPEAKER_04Yes, yeah, so post-grad study. So I did my undergrad at University of WA and then came to Melbourne Uni to do postgrad and almost ended up an academic. Thankfully, I escaped that route. But um, yeah, I've always loved books. Always, always love books and always love reading. And I was that kid that was down the local library. Um, this is where I said, like, I think it's an interesting kind of question between neglect's too strong a word, but you know, that I experienced it as freedom. Like I would just go to the library and read whatever I wanted. I watched whatever movies I wanted. The downside of that is that you are the ingesting things you're not ready for. You know, I remember watching Bloody Midnight Express when I was still in primary school or Jaws or things like that. The upside is I had access to all these worlds that, you know, took me out of reality into other people's minds and experiences, and I loved that.
SineadI read uh somewhere that you'd said you are quite passionate about not exposing children to things too early and things that are out of their control that they're not ready for. And how do you think we navigate that in the modern world?
SPEAKER_04Well, I mean, I think it's first and foremost you've got to know your kid, right? So but my two kids are really different in that respect. If I think of the younger one, she's autistic. I don't know if it's because she's autistic or this is because of just her personality. I mean, I don't know how you separate those two things out. But for example, she would be relatively okay watching something that had a bit of violence in it, but devastated watching something where an animal was harmed, or parent gets separated from a child, or like I remember we went to Northlands, which is you know a shopping centre in Melbourne, and we saw an ad for Dumbo, and the mum was getting the mum elephant was getting taken away in essentially like a prison wagon. We couldn't go back to Northlands for about two years, right? Whereas she can play quite a violent video game and she's actually okay. Whereas it would be the opposite for my older daughter. So I I just I think the article you're talking about is it's my worry exposing kids to things like um climate change, things like Palestine-Israel, things like famine, where they have no agency. Right. So I think it's giving kids a grown-up problem and then no way to do anything about it is just anxiety inducing. Different thing if you go, hey, using a lot of plastic isn't good. So have you got any ideas how we could use less plastic? Like that's very different to that straw is gonna kill a turtle in Indonesia, and then them going, Well, what do I do with those feelings? You know, like we we've got to be more careful, I think, about it, which is much, much harder in that age of the internet and social media. Um, but we do our best, I think, and think about what they're consuming, you know, rubbish in, rubbish out, I reckon.
SineadI heard someone talking about when we think about eating and we don't eat and eat and eat until we feel sick, and they said they like to do that with their brain as well. They don't like to put too much in. So they have some processing time before they, you know, might dive back into the news or oh well that's a good way to think of it.
SPEAKER_04I mean, I jokingly say, because I'm guilty of this as well, and I think a lot of adults are of consuming um painful or distressing things. And the now that I understand my own mental health better, I sort of jokingly go, I need a palate cleanser, you know, and that is why I'll watch something like a master chef or like a reality show or something like that, um, to have a break from, you know, SBS News or the latest documentary or whatever. I'm not one of those people that subscribes to ignore that altogether because I think we have responsibilities to understand what's happening in the world, like you can't just turn away. But ingesting it 24-7, um, it it does nothing for the people who are being harmed, and it definitely harms you. You know, like you cannot put your nervous system into that kind of activation all the time and be okay.
SineadAnd what about the choice of different information and platforms that we're using to get information? Because now more than ever, people are seeing things mostly through social media and believing that to be true. So how do you think as someone working in media and journalism how can we maintain a sense of truth and journalism ethics?
SPEAKER_04Well, we're not doing a very good job of it, I don't think, because um how can I put it like I'm trying not to be too too depressing, but I almost feel like we're in a it's I'm not I'm not the first person to say it, we're in an era of post-truth, you know, like even when the truth is clearly presented, and you know, I'm sorry to get political, but the most obvious example of that would be someone like a Trump, um, President Trump in in the United States. There are verified um facts about the things that he's done, uh, and not just his policies, but him personally, that no one seems to care about. You know, so I saw a meme the other day actually, which was really depressing, but pretty apt about, you know, we used to think that I guess ignorance was fuelled by lack of information. And now we can see we have all the information in the world, and ignorance persists, and in some ways it's like getting worse. One thing I would say on a positive note, like I note with my kids, especially my 13-year-old, like she can pick an AI picture like immediately, and a a picture or a video that I wouldn't recognize um as AI because she's a digital native and I'm not. And she finds it really cringe, right? So maybe there's some more hope for the younger generation that they will be able to spot that stuff. But yeah, it's a real problem. It is a real, I say this as a podcaster, it's a real issue when a range of people are um offering opinions, particularly on political and ideological events, um, without the qualifications of a journalist or without the rigour of trying to, you know, check multiple sources and other points of view and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's it's hard.
SineadNow you bring so much levity and humour to our lives, and you've been part of the comedy circle in one way or another for a while. How did that come about that you took the leap into doing stand-up?
SPEAKER_04Oh, it's a very um unusual story. I'll try and give you the short version. So I had been working a little bit in academia, and then I worked in policy and TAFE, I worked in like homelessness, family violence, like nothing that would lend itself to comedy. Um, and in my sort of late 20s, I had been a volunteer big sister, and which most people I think would know, like it's like a big brother, big sister program. And I was sort of at a crossroads career-wise. I was getting quite burnt out from all the what I would call do good a work. Um, I didn't have great boundaries. I think I'd be better at it now, but I I wasn't really ready for it then. And so I was at a crossroads and my little sister wanted to go to a comedy thing at the fringe festival. And if you're working with at-risk kids and they suggest something, you go, yes, right. So I went along, she didn't show up, mind you. Um, but that thing happened to be what's called the Jeez Louise Funny Women's Forum, which was put on at the time by the Melbourne International Comedy Festival to try and get more women into comedy. And so I landed at that by accident, and I was gonna leave. And the woman there said, because my little sister didn't show up, and she said, Well, you're here now, like you've paid, you may as well stay. And I was like, Yeah, all right. So part of that was that you would go home that night, write five minutes of jokes, come back the next day, perform them to the other participants and a panel of comedians, like professionals, and they'd give you feedback. And so I did that, it was terrible, but there was a I guess like a booking agent in the audience, and she said, Oh, do you want a gig at the Prince Patrick Hotel? I was like, Yeah, all right. So I did that and then did a couple more, and long story short, I went in the Royal Comedy Competition, which is like a national search for talent. So I guess what four months after never having seen Live Stand Up, never been on stage, I won that and ended up at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. So it was just pure accident, honestly.
SineadAnd did you have a feeling then that it might be a real outlet or a career now that you'd wandered into?
SPEAKER_04Um I don't remember consciously having that. It was more, I felt more like I got swept up in a in a tide. Uh, not a tide that I, you know, was resisting. It was kind of like, wow, I just it would never have occurred to me to do it. One of the things I remember, because I'd worked in policy and you know, I worked for the Council of Homeless Persons and a range of things, I would write these like beautiful, you know, policy statements or position papers or whatever, and you know, even as an academic, same thing. Like maybe a dozen people read it, they probably already agree with you. You know, you you don't have a sense of it being effective. And I remember thinking, oh, comedy could be quite different. Like my first set was some ridiculous thing about the TV show Big Brother. Um, but once I'd done a couple of gigs, I was like, oh, maybe I can actually say something with the humour. And for example, my raw comedy set was about refugee policy. So it was around the time of the Tampa incident. And to be honest with you, it's probably why I won in a way. Like I'm not saying I didn't do a good job. I think I did a good job, but it was very different, you know, to um what most people were telling jokes about. And that got me really interested, I thought. Maybe these policy documents and things that I believe in so deeply, um, maybe they land better and to a wider audience with some humour. So I started to um started to do more of that. And I kind of I was initially a bit embarrassed because I'm I, you know, no one wants an earnest comedian, or they didn't then. Uh, that's what how I felt. But then I was like, no, bugger it, you are earnest. So like you be who you are, and that's your lane. You know, I'm never gonna just do like one liners and puns. I love watching that stuff, but it's not what I do. So there's a I think a lesson in there in terms of parenting as well, of kind of going, don't shoehorn kids into what you want them to. But you actually have to sit with who they are and like work with that.
SineadSo you've shared the stage with so many renowned Australian comedians. What have those people taught you? Because comedians have a real depth to them. And often when you get to know them as people, uh, it's not always what you might think.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I know, very true. I mean, it's a cliche, but it's it's a cliche for a reason. Like most of the comedians I know are very thoughtful, um, often quiet, um, often introverted, not what you would expect. I'm deaf somewhere in the middle. Like, I think I've for sure got extroverted traits, but I like my alone time, and you know, I love nothing more than me in a book. Um, I think what most comedians have taught me, and the reason I love comedy, because it's anarchy, right? Kind of anyone can be a comedian in the sense. Doesn't mean anyone can be a good comedian, but anyone can be a comedian. And there's a lawlessness to that that I kind of like, in the sense that a good comedian speaks truth to power, right? So the things that we take for granted as a society, that might be something like gender roles. It might like there's a whole range of things. The things that we just sort of bumble along fitting into, um, a good comedian, the court jester, you know, will go, that doesn't seem right. Isn't that weird? Hasn't always been like that, doesn't have to be like that. Do you actually want it to be like that? And there's Jesus power in that because the most powerful forces that we experience, I think, are unseen, you know, so they're like the idea that mum does the washing, you know, like the generation above us would not have questioned that. To have someone on stage going, isn't that weird? Like, what is it about mum that makes her more suited to washing? Turns out nothing. Like you can kind of get people to see the power dynamics because the humour's there. And then question, well, make a decision. Do you actually want that as a role? Is that how you see motherhood? Or do you want to mix it up? Yeah, that's what they've taught me. I think don't don't accept the stories about life, society, or yourself, the scripts that you were handed, they're not yours.
SineadI think it was Jerry Seinfeld that said it's the the last place that isn't censored in the way that it's got an aliveness to it. So someone can't say, Whoa, whoa, whoa, it's it's already been shared.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, which is interesting, I think, because there's a lot of, as you've probably seen, a lot of um I think chest beating about censorship in comedy, from my point of view, it's nonsense. Like you can still get up and say whatever you want, you just might not get approval for it, right? So if you get up on stage now and do a blatantly racist stroke, for example, 25 years ago, everyone would have laughed and no one would have said a thing, even if they're uncomfortable. Um, now you might be challenged. That's still free speech. It's just going two ways, you know. So I'm okay with that.
SineadWhat kind of things help you to feel at home in yourself?
SPEAKER_04Mmm, well, that's a good question. Um, I think for me, going back to comedians being boring, it's very simple things. Like if I because I have in the past had some struggles with anxiety, depression, you know, the normal things that modern women, especially, modern mothers, even more so, modern human beings, um, deal with. I'm lucky that I've never been, you know, so sick that I've been debilitated, but I've certainly struggled with anxiety and a bit of depression on and off. So the thing I've learnt, I guess, from therapy is what I would call grounding techniques. And for me, they're really boring. They're things like, is the bed made, fold the washing, um, make it like don't eat a sandwich for dinner, make an actual meal, um, have a shower, you know, read a book. Um, obviously in the family context, spend time with the kids, or maybe not, right? Have actually give the kids a like mum needs an hour or whatever it is, the dogs, going for a walk, like very simple things. I used to think these things were really complicated, you know, that you needed a different type of therapy or a new medication, or you needed to be doing Pilates, or you needed to like listen to 20 podcasts. It's actually not for me. Like it's there's some things that I can do that I know will soothe me, even things like cleaning the bathroom, you know, to kind of go, Well, it looks beautiful. So that if that gives me a nice little lift, I'll take it. It doesn't make me perfect, it doesn't make me happy. You know, I think as a young person, I thought interventions around something like anxiety, the anxiety has to be gone and you need to feel happy. Now I go, no, you just need a a lift because the anxiety will go away on its own. Right? You just need even if you get 5%, take the 5%, have a better sleep, you know, whatever it is, sleep. Oh, I don't know who it was, Sneady said, but someone said about 10 years ago, um, sleep is the sex of the 21st century. And I'm like, hard relate. Like everyone I know is searching for sleep. Everyone, you know, and I don't know if that's um because I'm now 52 or because we live in 2026 and the world's hard. I I'm not sure which one it is.
SineadYeah, I think that it's the simple things that steady us. You know, those just reacquainting ourselves with this this thing of slow living, which is really we're not designed to be going at that speed all the time. And our bodies our bodies send messages to say, whoa, whoa, steady on it.
SPEAKER_04Yes, for me, and I didn't learn this until I was well into my 40s, my right shoulder gets sore. Right? So because I'm such a uh nerd, I live in my head, and that's really dangerous, I think, in terms of mental health, because whatever I'm feeling, I can rationalise. Um, and it took me well into my 40s to go, oh, your body's telling me something. Like when your shoulder starts hurting, or and everyone will have a different thing, and what could be headaches, it could be like whatever it is, stop. Like, look around, what's actually going on? What are you actually feeling? Um, don't run from that. Because the more you run from that, the bigger like your body will assert itself, in my experience. So really noticing that stuff. And the simple things, I mean, again, it's a cliche, but you think a kid's on Christmas morning, you know, they're often not playing with the remote control car and the PlayStation. They're playing with the box that came in. You know, they're most happy about having cuddles with you or sitting down having you made their favorite food. They're not sort of going, I want a new car. You know, and my theory, as I think you know, it for we're just little people in big people's bodies. So adults are the same. Like we chase these sort of external things that don't make anyone feel better, but geez, a nice cup of tea does, you know, or your your slippers. Yeah, simple pleasures, hey? Chat with a friend, you know, like a nice day, like noticing those, and I don't mean in terms of like a forced positive psychology vibe. I just mean in being present and actually kind of going, I feel it twe saying this, but every time I have a hot shower, because I we grew up with a this will really age me, a Braymar system, which meant that you had to literally go and get wood, light that to get hot water, so we weren't allowed to use much water. So I have instantaneous gas and aid. So if I'm standing in the shower and having this beautiful hot shower, like I I am literally grateful. And that's every time I have a shower. That makes you feel better.
SineadYeah, well, we need to revel in that, don't we? As much as we can. Nellie, you've been a great advocate for women's health for many years. In 2016, you were named the ambassador for Jean Hales, Australia's leading women's health organization. In what ways can we reach more women to allow them to know that these services are available? Gene Hales is quite incredible, even if you can go on their website and you can find a video about something that you think, oh, it's just me, or is this not quite right?
SPEAKER_04Oh, I think going full circle back to the start of our conversation about truth, um, it's getting harder and harder in the health space, I think, to convey truth, right? So there's a lot of um predatory, I wouldn't even call them health providers, like they're really grifters, you know, trying to sell you stuff to make you feel better that isn't going to work. Um, and then there's another class of people I think who are fully convinced that because it worked for them, it'll work for everybody else, um, also classic mistake. So having awareness of something like Gene Hales or like respected health organizations is really important, particularly around things. I mean, women's health is still so under research, like so many of the, so much of the research is done on men. Um, even for things that are critical to women, like birth control, even like antidepressants, even like like you think of menopause or period pain or endometriosis or a lot of the treatments that are used for those are medications that have been trialed on men. Um, so we've got a long way to go there. But going to Instagram for help on how to deal with those, I mean, it's useful to hear what worked for someone else, but it doesn't mean it will work for you. And it doesn't even mean that it worked for them, you know. I think there's a lot of, I don't know, I tried turmeric and now I don't have period pain. Well, maybe something else happened to affect your period pain. You know what I mean? Like you do have to have a critical lens, and you do with mainstream medicine too, but at least with somewhere like um Gene Hales or dare I say your GP, uh, there's robust research and training behind it. I love doing women's health stuff because it's a lot better now. But when I started doing it, so many of those areas were taboo. To even say periods on the radio or endometriosis or menopause, or let alone if you start talking about sexual health, mental health, um, a whole range of things like it just wasn't done. And as you probably know, like the biggest health issue for women in Australia is family violence, you know, and we don't want to have that conversation, but it's a conversation that we really need to have. It's not car accidents and it's not hamburgers and it's not smoking, it's family violence, and we have to find a way to have that conversation if we're gonna reduce um family violence. So I'm I'm comfortable going into areas that no one wants to talk about, let's put it that way.
SineadHow do you instill confidence in young women? You come across a lot of women in your job. You also have two young girls. What kind of things do you want to pass on?
SPEAKER_04Oh, you ask such great questions. Um I think first and foremost you model it. So uh, for example, one of the big issues that I faced as a young person was um body image issues and you know, confident lack of confidence in how I looked. And um, you know, it was the era of like Cindy Crawford and, you know, the supermodels and all that kind of stuff, and none of us could live up to that. And I was so punishing, you know, to myself and to my body and and to my brain and my heart. And I was so determined when I had girls, especially, but kids in general, that I would not model that to them. And like most parenting things, I thought, then I have to do that work on myself because it doesn't matter how many times I say, you look amazing and you can be any size and you're still beautiful. If I'm standing in front of the mirror and say, geez, I look fat and that, or even if my face suggests that, they are going to pick up on that. They see everything. So do the work on yourself. The things the if you want to break generational curses, you do the work on yourself and then they see it. I think that's the best thing you can do. In terms of pride, which I think is a really important thing to think about in parenting. This isn't my idea. I can't remember where I got it from. Um, but I heard a parenting expert say, don't uh don't say to kids, I'm proud of you. Say, are you proud of yourself? Now I do both, but I know what he means because you don't want to be reliant on external validation. Right? So to let's say you sinead, you come home and you've got a good mark on your test or something. Amazing. Are you proud of yourself? You know, what how are you feeling about it? Rather than, oh my god, Mom's so proud of you. Not to say you can't do both, but I think that thing of instilling in them, basically you're saying over and over again, you should be really proud of yourself. You were kind to that other kid. Are you proud of yourself? Um that's what I want them to feel. Because I think the world is hard either way. Um, if you can go into the world with confidence, you can weather the knocks.
SineadDid you always want to be a mum?
SPEAKER_04No, I didn't actually. I mean, God, I'm sounding so depressing like such a nerd, but I'm just gonna tell you the truth because that's how I like to do things. I even in my 20s, so we're talking in the 1990s, I was really worried about climate change and really worried about, you know, we had the ozone layer, and there was, you know, all sorts of things going on. And I thought for a long time that it was irresponsible to bring children into that world. That is a mix, I think. I didn't enjoy my 20s very much. Like I had good moments, but I look to be perfectly frank, I don't think my mental health was great. It wasn't debilitating. I was working, I was studying, I was achieving things. Um, but it probably says something about that, and then there's also some truth in it, you know, like it's it is um a real issue, I think. And then I mean, the easiest way to say it is well, two things happened. Actually, a comedy colleague of mine, Dave O'Neill, who some of you will will know, he's a great Melbourne comedian. I remember talking to him about it backstage, like, why don't you have kids? And I told him, I'm like, I'm so embarrassed, but this is why. And he said to me, I've never forgotten this, like over 20 years ago. He said, Any kids you have will make the world better. And maybe that gave me permission because I did. I love kids, I've always loved kids. I come from a big family, lots of cousins, really love babies, all the rest of it. Um, so that and circumstances and what I was in my 30s, and yeah, had them and absolutely love being a mum. Absolutely love it. It was never about not wanting to be a mum, it was more about worry. Yeah, my resistance, yeah. The what ifs. What ifs and you know, will I be a good enough mum? You know, all of that kind of stuff. Like we is the world good enough? Am I good enough? Should I do it? You know, there was I've never been someone who just kind of falls into like a way of life, if that makes sense. I'm I'm well, other than comedy, I've just talked into that story. Um, but I've always thought about those kinds of issues, you know.
SineadAnd you've written about both of your daughters and how much you love them and so they both have invisible illnesses, disability. I'm not quite sure what terms you both. Yeah. How has your family adjusted at times when perhaps the outside world has been insensitive or unknowing or not understanding of that?
SPEAKER_04Better at some times than others, you know. I don't I think there's times when it's really overwhelming and it feels like it's gonna break you as uh as a mother and even as a family, you know. Like I don't want to pretend I have a bit of an issue, and certainly my daughter does, with the whole idea of, well, neurodiversity is a superpower. I mean, it can be, but it can also be really hard. Really hard. Like I remember she said to me when she was little, she was like three or four. She said, the world takes it really hard on me, mum. You know, and it does. That is the reality. How do we handle that? Humor definitely helps. Like, um, again, this might be controversial for some listeners. I let the kids swear, right? They have um a limited amount of swears that they're allowed to have in the day, like there's rules around it. But if you can use the word in a sentence in an appropriate context and let off some steam, you go for it. All right. So let's say, for example, if like there's been bullying, by all means swear about the bully. Uh that's not saying go in and swear at the bully. I'm not saying go in and you know create a scene or anything like that, but to be able to have the outlet of sitting there talking with mum and going, that bully's a bleep, bleep, bleep, go for it. Right? So we don't hide from it. We do not sweep it under the carpet, we don't pretend it's not happening. Um, often there's humour, like my youngest gets misgendered a lot, as I think you probably read about in some of my articles, and like a hairdresser refused to cut her hair when she wanted to cut her hair off, or like a plumber all thinks she's a little boy, and then you say, Oh, actually, she's a girl, then the plumber spirals, and you're looking after the plumber. And so, like, we've joke about those things rather than either pretend they're not happening or get angry, you know, like you might have some anger in there as well, but um, a lot of it would bring a lot of levity to that. And my view is home should be a soft place to land, right? So any kid that comes into my house knows that they will be loved and respected for who they are. And for some parents, I reckon that would look soft. Whereas my view is the world's hard. So let's have a little soft place here. And that doesn't mean no rules, it's definitely not like I'm really big on manners and you know a range of other things. But yeah, I do want it to be soft at home so that they always have a soft place to come back to as a parent and their friends.
SineadAnd there's such strength in softness, I think.
SPEAKER_04There's so much strength in soft like grab your plushie, right? Bring your plush. I don't care if you're eight or twenty eight. If you go or 38 or 48, if you go to bed and you hug a teddy and it makes you feel better, so what? Right? It's talking of scripts we're handed. It's like that is, I mean, that's literal softness, but it's also emotional softness and vulnerability of like, I've had a really hard day. Maybe the thing I need is a hot Milo and a cuddle with a bloody plushie toy. Great, go for it. Like, well, as opposed to a vodcrantonic, right? Would that be more acceptable? Like, I'd rather you have the plushie, you know. So to accommodate that stuff, like when we if we have a kids' party, for example, we always have a room that's got like a sheet over it where we put quiet room on it. And any kid that comes, I don't make a big deal out of it, but I just go, that's a quiet room. If you go in there, um, you know, we don't talk or we talk quietly, so that if there's kids, as there are with a lot of neurodivergent kids that get overwhelmed and overstimulated, they've got somewhere to go. So it's not like a big fanfare about it, but it's just like that's what we do here, you know, and off you go.
SineadAnd you've published three great children's books that are about acceptance and celebrating our differences. Your latest called Some Brains is a book celebrating neurodiversity. It was nominated as part of the International Outstanding Books on Disability in 2022, and a mum uh wrote about it on your website, um, and she said I have two autistic kids, twins age 10, and we were given your book, Some Brains, by our psych. We have spent a lot of time in offices and rooms and hospitals, just once. It would have been nice to hear, hey, you're perfectly good the way you are. I wish someone had given this to us earlier. Honestly, made me cry. Nellie, what does this book mean to you? And what messages and reassurance did you want to give to children so they can see themselves reflected back, but also families?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, those comments they they still like it, really, is the highlight of my career, that book, you know, um, not financially, but in terms of how I feel about it. I wrote it for my youngest daughter when she was diagnosed autistic, she was six, and went looking for books. And at that time, most of the ones that I found, the vibe was kind of like life's gonna be terrible, but you'll be okay. And I'm like, we're not doing that. We are not giving her the message that life's gonna be terrible. Um, so decided, like I've done with many other things, go, all right, well, then we'll do it. And um I just love it. I love it. What I wanted to do, and I hope I've done this, is strike a balance between recognizing that the world is harder. Like it's a kind of for the nerds out there, the social model of disability, like the problem's the environment, not the child, right? So the the environment that we live in is absolutely harder for neurodivergent kids. And so the girl in the book, for example, finds school really hard because the air conditioner's too loud and people's lunchboxes are smelly, and you know, kids talk too loud and there's too much change and blah, blah, blah. So those things are real. But there's also um a lot of joy in those kids, and those kids have fun and they might be creative or they might see things that you know we can't see. Like there's a girl in the book that sees letters when she smells things, you know, and all of these are like diagnosable things, but obviously I didn't want to make it like a medical textbook. Um, even just around framing. So one of the things that's told to autistic kids a lot is oh, she's a very fussy eater. He's a very fussy eater. I can't get into it, like my daughter's list of foods is in that book. She would only eat white food or wicked food, as she called it, for years, right? So you can imagine so many contexts in which that child would be shamed. Like eat your body dinner and you're too fussy and da da. So in some brains, the the child that will only eat white food is called fastidious, right? Which is a completely different framing. Or you're too emotional in some brains, like, oh, you're like you're beautifully sensitive, right? And that's why you're probably creative, or that's why you're a really good friend, or whatever. So it's the same stuff from a different lens. And it just means it just means everything to me, honestly. And it's not just kids, like I've had so many adults, particularly late diagnosed or undiagnosed but suspicious, you know, who will say to me, Oh, I read it because it was at my kids' school or something. I burst into tears and I realise, oh, I'm not actually stupid or I'm not naughty, I'm actually autistic, or I've got ADHD. It seems like ADHD boys particularly are shamed for being naughty and problematic rather than different. And autistic girls seem very contained, like often they're the the big feelings that are going on are being pushed down. So they're actually quite easy to teach in a way because they're not going to cause a fuss, but they are losing it inside and they're losing it when they get home. So to have that kind of sensitivity acknowledged, and hopefully it's funny, you know, there's some funny bits in it, and there's lots of different types of kids in there. I didn't want the kids with visible disabilities to be sad, you know, like the idea of there's the kid in the wheelchair sitting in the corner with someone reading to him. Nah, he's playing tuga war. You know, he's she's dancing, but whatever. Like that my experience of people with disabilities is not sad sitting in the corner. It is them doing stand-up. It is them, you know, being on dates, it is them, whatever, like being fully formed human beings like everybody else. So I've tried to put that in in those books.
SineadI love the term that you use, human biodiversity.
unknownYeah.
SineadAnd someone else who I interviewed who works in gardens, and we were talking about how the diversity of the forest, and we need all those different little micro isms, we need all the different bugs and insects for make everything so everything works. And I think that that's a really good way to think about our diversity because we all have skills. It's just a matter of finding where those skills are.
SPEAKER_04And look at the environment, I think is the that's what I've learned from disability activists. Look at the environment first before you look at the child. So if do you frame someone not being able to get into the local library as, oh, they can't access it, or do you go, oh, actually this building's not accessible to everybody? The person in the wheelchair is not the problem. In the same way as if a school environment is so overwhelming for a child that they can't regulate, maybe there's some changes that you can make in the environment. Or maybe that system does not suit them. Rather than here's an OT and a speechy and a psychologist to change your kid. They need to adapt. We all need to adapt to the world. I'm not saying this is like a pure one or the other thing, but treating a kid as a problem to be treated is um not setting that child up to feel good about themselves. And it doesn't work anyway. Like all you're doing is teaching them to pretend to be someone they're not, and that catches up with you eventually. So, like, it's okay to need the lights a bit dimmer, you know, like it's we're not talking about it it's not radical. Like if you actually treat that child in the same way in a forest, if it's too hot, some of the organisms won't make it. Right? It's the same with biodiversity and human diversity. We want everyone to thrive. So look at the environment, what's it producing?
SineadAnd one thing that does seem to support us all are the animals that we meet along the way. And I can see your dogs in the background. Yeah, and they bring so much humor and unconditional love to our lives, but I also wonder about how dogs can take us and be a conduit to community and connection, and then it got me thinking about those gentle touch points in our local community and why we need those.
SPEAKER_04They definitely can be great connectors, like whether that's the dog park or if you've got a dog at the school gate or like play dates or all sorts of things, they can be. Um, not for everyone, I don't think, but they definitely have been for me. And even just walking the dogs, you know, and you you know the other dog walkers and you get a sense um of I see the other dog walkers more than I see my friends, you know, because I'm doing it daily. I think it for us, I mean, I've always loved animals, um, but one of the things that they provide in my household, because both the kids have got invisible disabilities, there's something, I don't know, dogs get it. They get it. All I can say is like if one of them's escalating, for example, the dog will know before I know, and the dog will know before they know. And so if you actually are really the dog's really in tune with the pack, I guess. So if you're in tune with the dog, the dog will give you a lot of information. They're also just beautiful and comforting. Like my older daughter has a lot of health issues, is in bed a lot. So having, you know, one of our dogs is 48 kilos, having a having that's probably about the same weight as her, to be honest, like having a big dog in bed that lays with you, so you're not like like it offsets loneliness, you know, so and it's tactile and like a weighted blanket and all of those kinds of things. Um, I will say there'll be plenty of parents listening on one of them as well as goes, oh my lord, there can also be a burden, like the getting up and feeding them and cleaning up and walking and picking up her and all that kind of stuff, like all these things, it's not one or the other. Uh, but I would definitely take all that for what they give to the family. And going back to the world, you know, what we do when things are hard in the world. Like I have heard my kids talking to the dogs, especially when they were little, and this happened, and then you know, she said this and that. They're a safe place, aren't they? Like they're not gonna go, you know what you need to do, or don't be silly, or like some of the things that um human beings do. Dogs just give you a cuddle, lick you on the face, I don't know, snore. Like they're pretty there's a safe container.
SineadNellie, you've been amazing and so generous with your time. I'll just ask you a few last questions. We often speak of the village of old. It takes a village to raise a child. I wonder what form does a village take in the modern world?
SPEAKER_04Oof, yeah, I think um I used to do a joke about this when I was doing stand-up, where particularly when I first became a parent, where it's you know, everything you'd read, all the books and everything be like, oh, you takes a village, takes a village, I'd be like, but where is it? You know, like I haven't been able to find that. I think modern parenting's uh the biggest problem, not the biggest, one of the biggest problems we have in society is how isolating modern parenting is. And, you know, I look at say my nana, one had 12 kids, the other had nine. I'm not for a second saying that that wouldn't have been brutally hard. Like both didn't have husbands, but they both their husbands died, all sorts of um difficulties. The thing they had though that our generation doesn't have is the village, you know, like con and that's also country life, maybe, but constant visitors, you know, lots of family around, neighbours, aunties taking kids, uncles being involved, all that stuff. I don't know about you, but I certainly don't have that. And um, I still don't have it. But even when they were little and you really need that, you really would benefit from someone going, Hey, I'll have the kids for afternoon, you have a shower and go for a walk. I just didn't have it. And the most of the parents I talk to don't. So I don't know how we get that village back, but I wish we could.
SineadOne thing that I do really want to ask you about is in 2022 you uh launched the podcast The Single Life of Us and had more than a million downloads, and has been in Apple and Spotify's top 20 podcast in Australia, and you've now got Dear Nelly exploring sex, dating, and relationships from the other side of 40. How much fun has this been and how important is it to carve out these spaces for real conversations?
SPEAKER_04It's so important. I mean, putting it in the context of this discussion, it's really important for parents in general, but I think mothers in particular to be given the space to be adults. And I don't know about other mums listening, but I think unconsciously, when I became a mum, I almost kind of went mums do certain things and they don't do other things. And that's not to say mums don't have sex or they don't have relationships or date, but it sort of became something that um was on the back burner and like it's taboo, like I think we're still uncomfortable with mums talking about sexuality, for example, or dating or anything like that. And I became single in my early 40s, I think, or in my 40s, and when I went to look at like dating podcasts and stuff, because I hadn't dated since you know the late 1990s, like there were no apps, there were it was a completely different world, you couldn't even text people. Um, so all of them were for young people, and the issues are really different. If you're a parent listening and you go back into dating, like you're navigating, not just you but your kids, possibly whoever you're dating their kids. You might have like one Friday, a fortnight where you're able to be free. How do you do sleepovers? Is it okay? How do you protect your kids? How do you protect yourself? You know, one of the things I think a lot of um single parents struggle with is actually feeling selfish to date, you know, or like, should I put this on my kids? And I think we need to have a conversation where you go, you know, healthy parents, healthy kids. You can't deny your own needs. And I'm not just talking about sex, like the brains always go there, but I'm talking about affection, attention, um, romance, like all of those things. Those are important parts of the human existence. And to just go they don't matter is just not true. So, and that doesn't mean you have to date. If you're comfortable not dating, go for it. But for those who do want to, it's okay to have those things. It's like I particularly want to like shake women and go, you are allowed to have this, right? That you can go on a date and go out for dinner, have a nice time, or start seeing someone without harming your kids. Like there's ways that you've got to navigate it all emotionally and physically and all the things, but you deserve that. Like you deserve someone to bloody stroke your cheek and buy you a bunch of flowers. Like, if you're the happier you are and the the more happy your kids see you, the better for everyone, I reckon. Like, I don't want my girls growing up thinking to be a mother is to be a martyr. You know, of course we sacrifice, they will always come first. I find it really interesting dating. Whenever I've dated someone who's kind of been if they express any hesitation about the kids, I'm like, hang on, they're always gonna come first. Like they're above me. So they're definitely not gonna be below you. Right? So that is the nature of dating a a single parent of whatever gender. So but having said that, dating's good for you. Go for it.
SineadAnd what about people who have got out of a relationship and feel like oh that that's it for me.
SPEAKER_04That might be I get that. Uh what I guess what I'd tell them is that's how I felt. Um, almost everyone. So in dear Nelly, my current podcast, I have a guest every week and I talk to them about their dating history, and we go, you know, back right back to like to teenagers and what were you like then, and how are your twenties and what's dating like now? You're in your 40s, 50s, 60s, sometimes 70s. All of us have been there. Everyone, you do not go through divorce, separation, big endings of relationships, even if the relationship was healthy. You do not come out of that unscathed, and it's really healthy to have a period where you go, never again, never doing this again. Like that's heartbreak. That makes sense. Um, but everyone I've spoken to has moved from that. And in surprising ways, you know, people call in. It's kind of like an agony art kind of thing. And there's some callers who've been with me, you know, for years, and they'll call back in the first time they call them, I will never date again, I am broken, um, even to the point where they've come out of abusive relationships, that relationships aren't safe for me, and two years later they're engaged. You know, um, you don't know, I think, and that's not me telling you to date because I also have other people in my life and callers who are like, you know what, I'm done, I'm really happy on my own. I'm putting my energy into my friends, into my hobbies, into cooking, like what you go for it. I don't think everyone needs to be in a relationship. But I think say I am not dating for now. Right? Nothing is forever. For now has become a big mantra in my house. Like, if COVID didn't teach us that, that we do not know what's coming, like nothing will. So, yeah, that's how you feel now. Honour it. Great, put your energy into yourself. You don't know if you'll feel like that in six months, you don't even know if you'll feel like that next week. You really don't. So be open to it. You're definitely not done. Like, if you do want a relationship um or romance in your life, and you're thinking, oh, but I'm 50 and I'm too old and I don't look like what I used to look like. No, I've had callers who've gotten engaged in their 70s. My favorite uncle, my uncle Kev, he had not had a relationship his entire life and got married when he was 70, 72. So just remember Uncle Kev, right? You do you don't know. I'm not saying it's gonna happen for everyone, but we don't know. Like, you're not done, and all of let go of the body stuff. Let go, let go, let go, let go. Like you can be hot for each other at any age.
SineadYou wrote in The Guardian that it took me well into my twenties to learn how to even experience my own emotions, let alone who I actually was. How do you feel now?
SPEAKER_04Um I still have to work on that. And I think this is why I say we are little people in big people's bodies, because you know, I guess I grew up in an environment and in a time where kids' emotions were completely disregarded, you know, like that, and that's why I'm uncomfortable with painting this picture of like it was an amazing, like free-range childhood. Um, it was also a childhood, I think, where, you know, I mean, anyone my age will will would have heard this phrase, oh don't be bloody stupid, right? So if you came home was like, Oh, I'm really sad because you know, so and so's mum was mean to her, oh, don't be bloody stupid. You know, so there was a lot of dismissing um in that generation and a lot of uh To different degrees, I think learned to shut down, you know, and to not have feelings. Feelings were not acceptable. And that's where you see anger skill over, particularly in little boys, or you see, um, I think most it's such a generalization, but girls tend to turn that anger inward and you know, punish themselves with food and dieting and a whole range of other things that affect their self-esteem. So I had to learn to do that. I certainly wasn't shown it, and it didn't feel safe for me to do that. And I used to just think I was really good at adapting to stuff. I'm like, you can drop me anywhere and I'm fine. Yeah, I was fine because I was dissociated. You know, like of course I wasn't feeling stressed or angry or scared because I wasn't feeling anything. And once you then start to learn to feel the full suite of human emotions, it's so overwhelming. But I guess now I'm at a point where I'm like, you can't feel the beautiful things like love and joy and even calmness if you've shut off like it's not a tap you can shut off selectively. You're sort of shutting it all off. Um, fear, anger, the things that we're uncomfortable with. So now I'm better. I think it kind of goes, okay, you're angry for now. You know, you're scared for now. Oh, you're not feeling anything, but your shoulders sore. Something's going on. All right. So being able to sit in the discomfort of those yucky emotions and not push them away. And my goodness, I wish we'd teach kids that. Nothing wrong with being angry. You don't punch people, you don't scream at people, you don't smash stuff. Like there's wrong behavior, but there's some things you should be angry about, you know, or sad or disgusted or shameful. Like there's times even where you should be ashamed. You shouldn't stay ashamed, you shouldn't live in shame, but shame can point to you that you've crossed your own moral line, you know, and that you shouldn't do it again. So geez, we don't we we're not doing this well, I don't think. We need to do this better. So I'm trying to do it so that my kids learn to do it, but also for myself, because I want to feel all the good stuff. You know, I want to feel joy and happiness and love and all those things deeply.
SineadWell, to finish today, Nellie, thinking about something joyful. Can you remember a vivid moment where you really felt joy and you were lost in a moment of play?
SPEAKER_04Oh, I think this I find really hard to access, which I think is very interesting for a comedian. I don't find it hard to access humour. Um, I laugh easily, I find joy easily, but play to me is different. Play is where you're not in control, right? And if emotions, feelings haven't been safe, it's really hard to play. So I've had to kind of confect situations to make me play. I can relax, I can have a good time, I can go on holidays and you know, lay on a beach, I can do all those things. But play, um, as I think I have told you before, the most obvious example for me is that I started doing drag. And so uncomfortable, Sinead. Like my stand-up's very contained, it's quite cerebral, I don't move, I stand on stage, you know, I'm in control. I'm not really, because anything can happen, but you know, I feel more in control. Drag's silly, it's stupid, it's clowning, really. It is physical, right? So your body is the tool, and I hate it and I also love it. Like there is nothing. If you said to me, get up this afternoon and go and do a speech at a conference, I'd be like, Oh, yeah, I can do that. It's not that I wouldn't have any um nerves, but I I completely manageable. If you said to me, All right, you drag act, can you go and do it for their you know, conference dinner? I'd do it, but my goodness, I'd be stressed, I'd be sweating, I'd be worried, I'd be and it's because it is play, you know, and I know that I need to do it, so I'm I'm making myself do it.
SineadWell, here's the more dancing or cooking or whatever it is where you find that sense of play. Nellie, thank you so much. You are a very inspiring and thought-provoking and warm person. So thank you for sharing with us. Um, and we look forward to hearing what you come up with next.
SPEAKER_04Oh, my absolute pleasure. And um, as you've reminded me and we've discussed before, finding those moments of play, joy, all those things. Like, I think we've got to do it consciously. You know, you don't have to do drag, but life gets really busy and overwhelming and all those sorts of things. Like, give yourself that. And when you give yourself that, you give the kids around you that. So um you good reminder for me to do it and hopefully for people listening. Yeah, and thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
SineadThank you, Nellie. See you later.
MylieYou've been listening to season three of The Love of Play. A big thanks to Nellie for taking the time to chat with us. This interview was conducted by Sinead Halliday. Sinead hosted the top of this episode with me, Miley Naulendorf. The episode was edited by Jonathan Ravette, with mastering by James North Productions, and music by Selena Byrne. And a huge thanks to our little friends Lucy, Laddie, Andy, Adelaide, and Toby, whose voices you hear throughout this podcast.playgroup.org.au. Did you enjoy listening to this podcast? We really hope that you did, and we would love you to spread the word. You can do that by leaving us a review on whatever platform you're listening to this on. Five stars only, please. And we would love you to tell your friends and family about it. Please share the love. Thanks.